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Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

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Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#31

Post by adrianN »

wolfgke wrote: post #29
adrianN wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it depends on the type of software development that you want to do? What area is your expertise in?

I think I know quite a lot about C and C++ (which means Modern C++ (currently C++17)), but have also worked in a lot of other programming languages (including Python, Java, JavaScript, Erlang (additionally, some further ones for university courses)). Additionally to computer science, I studied mathematics, where I also have a doctorate. I wrote my doctoral thesis about some very tricky questions about geometric struc…

If you're still looking for a C++ job in Berlin, drop me an email.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#32

Post by d3v »

cyborgx7 wrote: post #30

Off-topic: This is an article I would consider spending 1-3 dollars to read. But the only option for me is to subscribe. Therefore I won't be reading it and they won't get my money. I know that on demand paying for articles hasn't been made to work yet. But it still feels like there is a potential here that isn't being serviced.

There is a Dutch company called Blendle[0] that has figured this out pretty well locally, and also has a BETA program running in the United States[1]. Articles are often much cheaper than 1-3 dollars, I don't recall paying more than 1 eur. They also combat clickbait titles and intros by providing a refund when the article turns out lousy.

[0]: https://blendle.com/ [1]: https://launch.blendle.com/

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#33

Post by BLKNSLVR »

oh_sigh wrote: post #10
sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

Well, the company claims that the allegations are false and they aren't working with the Turkish government without an export license.

I wonder how good the market is for malware in countries with stable democracies and a good human rights record compared to those without.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#34

Post by wolfgke »

adrianN wrote: post #31
wolfgke wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I know quite a lot about C and C++ (which means Modern C++ (currently C++17)), but have also worked in a lot of other programming languages (including Python, Java, JavaScript, Erlang (additionally, some further ones for university courses)). Additionally to computer science, I studied mathematics, where I also have a doctorate. I wrote my doctoral thesis about some very tricky questions about geometric struc…

If you're still looking for a C++ job in Berlin, drop me an email.

If you are talking about think-cell: about 1.5 years ago, I applied, but was rejected after the programming test (even though they liked my CV and had to admit that the C++ code that I sent in was of decent quality).

Let me put it this way: I am more of a deep thinker than a fast thinker and (to put it in mathematical terms) more of a theory maker than a problem solver (i.e. I prefer Alexander Grothendieck over Paul Erdős, even though, of course, both were great mathematicians).

So, I was not capable to solve the hard algorithmic problem that think-cell had in their programming test in the given 9 hours; not for a lack of C++ skills, but for a lack of experience in developing "crazy" data structures and rather being a deep thinker/theory maker instead of a fast thinker/problem solver.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#35

Post by coldtea »

sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

>I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes.

Never mind those, they work in Germany, which as a country had its hand in 2 world wars, and directly exterminated 10+ million people, and was the home of Stasi, one of the fiercest surveillance agencies until 1989...

That alone, and how totalitarianism can be close at home at any time, should give them pause regarding making surveillance software, never mind what some developing world authoritarian regimes would do with it ...

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#37

Post by mschuster91 »

sveme wrote: post #6

I'm always wondering how the software developers of FinFisher justify working for such shady players like Turkey and other middle east authoritarian regimes. Are they heading home to family and kids after destroying the remnants of the turkish democracy and tell themselves "twas a good day"?

Unfortunately not all of us programmers share the same foundation of moral principles, and not all of us programmers are anti-authoritarian left-wing anarchists. There are a fair number of "patriots" among us and no matter how much I dislike this kind of person they are the talent pool from which police, army and shady companies such as Finfisher draw their staff.

For some, the money is also appealing - the shadier the company the more limited the supply of workers (e.g. many could imagine working for the police, less for the military and only very few for Finfisher etc.), so they put up quite a chunk of money... enough to expand their talent pool, at least.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#38

Post by coldtea »

lnsru wrote: post #28
wolfgke wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany (where I live), the job market for software developers is not that you can arbitrarily choose for whom you want to work; you have to take the job that you can get (and I know quite some people (in Germany) who work in software development who would love to find a better job). So I personally believe that these people simply could not find a better job with less moral dilemmas.

I share your opinion, job market in Germany is a tragedy today. I fully understand people writing shady software for VW group at Bosch, they have no alternatives. Kids want nice vacation, payments for the bank must be done every month. Though I am not software developer, but I get also some recruiter offers every week. I was interested in changing jobs and starting talking to these recruiters. Max offers were at €60k…

So, whether they'd work on making surveillance for totalitarian states was based on whether they'd make $60/k year or $100/k, and afford stuff "nice vacation" for the kids?

Doesn't sound like a principled stance.

Basically it rounds down to: they would consider a more ethical job, but it's their last priority, well behind a good salary and nice benefits...

(It's understandable of course, just not principled)

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#39

Post by pimmen »

jacobush wrote: post #19
pimmen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't think they care, and they're under the assumption nobody else cares too. I work for a news publisher in Sweden, and when we got acquired by a larger one the CTO of that company held a huge speech about why working for a news companty was so much more rewarding than working for Spotify. You get to make sure democracy functions, keeping the power in check. Sure, we can't pay you as much as Spotify, and it…

That's sort of hilarious! Makes you wonder, who wrote it, did he laugh at you poor sods on the inside for maybe having "morals" and other inferior things ripe for exploiting with "free" people like him. Or whatever else went on inside that head. If anything in particular.

Yeah, I don't know. I think the dozen or so other people he recruited from us to follow him might know, however.

Re: Clash over Surveillance Software Turns Personal in Germany

#40

Post by raxxorrax »

pablooliva wrote: post #12
qznc wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends on where you live and if you are willing to move. However, FinFisher seems to be located in Munich and it is easy to find a software developer job in Munich.

Agreed. Finding work in Munich or Stuttgart is easy as a software dev. I would imagine the case is the same for most major cities in the country.

True, there are some curious hotspots for software engineers. If you are tied down by family or friends, you might have to accept a significantly lower pay depending on location. Even if larger enterprises are present locally, they mostly pay less if the local market doesn't offer more.

You can do contract work and travel a lot, but that isn't for everyone.

Of course the lower pay is still enough to make a good living, but it certainly isn't anywhere near 6-figure jobs.

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