Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project • Hacker News Board

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#341

Post by speedplane » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 8:16 AM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #340

jrochkind1 wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, aren't you the first one to do that in your first comment in this thread?

I don’t think antihero did, I think Facebook did that with this project. Also PayPal before that. Personally, I don’t trust any of these systems or organisations, neither tech, nor fintech, nor traditional banks. They’re all flawed for different reasons. Technology is an attack surface the traditional banks don’t comprehend (from the horror stories I’ve heard from tech people who worked for them), and successful atta…

> Technology is an attack surface the traditional banks don’t comprehend, and successful attacks on banking have rewards that tech… I don’t think fully appreciates.

True, but Tech also doesn't really appreciate banks. Banks make much of their money from transaction fees, from literally moving money from one point to another, to large IPO underwriting. Tech can certainly lower transaction fees, but a bank's transaction fees is more than just getting a job done, it's trusting that the job can get done. Banks are able to get away with large transaction fees because they have developed trust and credibility that many are willing to pay for. Tech simply sees this as an engineering challenge and ignores the non-tech legal and social guarantees that banks provide.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#342

Post by ben_w » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 8:24 AM UTC

vinniejames wrote: post #329

tim333 wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you use Transferwise, Revolut, Monzo or similar.

Not true, you still get screwed on cash withdrawals regardless of the service you use. Most ATMs apply DCC even when you hold the local currency

Now I think about it, I’ve never actually tried using my Revolut card in an ATM.

What I have done is used it for my day-to-day shopping in Germany for just over a year, for holidays in Switzerland, Austria, Finland, and Spain, and also as a really good source of exchange rates when transferring money from my Pounds-only bank to my Euros-only bank.

In all occasions, it deducts from the correct balance without conversion.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#343

Post by equalunique » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

One would think Facebook's Libra was a country sanctioned by the US.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#344

Post by espadrine » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 3:13 PM UTC

davout wrote: post #338

espadrine wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes you can send money very quickly with SEPA, but that's not the settlement time. The money can still be reversed From a banking perspective, the money is settled in 10 seconds, at least with TIPS (the ECB’s platform; the ACH clear it, but the end-user behavior is the same). Reversal (known as a recall in the standards) requires consent of the beneficiary.

Recalls don't require consent of the beneficiary.

> It will depend on the consent of the Beneficiary whether to turn back the Funds to the Originator.

SCT Inst Scheme Rulebook § 4.3.2.3 [0].

Of course, if you are talking about fraud, yes: banks may answer positively to a recall, without contacting the beneficiary, when the beneficiary is a fraudster. Indeed, local laws often require that of banks, and therefore the standards define a dedicated protocol for that.

When you break the law, many legal protections no longer apply.

[0]: https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/sites/default/files/k...

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#345

Post by dingo_bat » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 3:35 PM UTC

thefounder wrote: post #254

te_chris wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like the eur, usd, aud, nzd, gbp, jpy? That sort of stable and reliable currency with a strong banking infrastructure?

Yeah except they are not digital currencies(i.e you cant store them on a cold wallet, you can't send or accept them without several 3rd parties involved(i.e paypal, visa, banks)

I can store my currency quite well in a cold (or hot) wallet. I can store it in my drawer if I want to.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#346

Post by davout » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

espadrine wrote: post #344

davout wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recalls don't require consent of the beneficiary.

> It will depend on the consent of the Beneficiary whether to turn back the Funds to the Originator. SCT Inst Scheme Rulebook § 4.3.2.3 [0]. Of course, if you are talking about fraud, yes: banks may answer positively to a recall, without contacting the beneficiary, when the beneficiary is a fraudster. Indeed, local laws often require that of banks, and therefore the standards define a dedicated protocol for that. Whe…

There are many cases where asking the beneficiary is not necessary, fraud is only one of them.

And to clarify, it's not really "fraud", it's "claim by the originator that a fraud occurred". Which is a very different thing, and which matters immensely in practice.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#347

Post by lacker » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

hanniabu wrote: post #183

lacker wrote: post #38

I hope this doesn't cause Facebook to give up on Libra. I personally have no desire to own Libra. But traditional bank accounts kind of suck as a product and I would like to see more tech companies competing with them. The problems with bank accounts: 1. They charge you fees for things 2. They try to upsell me stupid financial products 3. They are not easy to use in other countries 4. Typing in my credit card number…

Sounds like you should be rooting for Bitcoin and Ethereum than Libra.

I root for Bitcoin and Ethereum more than I root for Libra. But I am rooting for all of them.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#348

Post by lacker » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

stallmanite wrote: post #130

jonahhorowitz wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's generally unsolved since right now you can't convert currency into _any_ cryptocoin without KYC (know your customer).

Sure you can, buy mining equipment and wait. Localbitcoins also didn’t involve KYC AML last time I tried it.

Localbitcoins now requires KYC.

https://localbitcoins.com/blog/id-verification-update/

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#349

Post by espadrine » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

davout wrote: post #346

espadrine wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will depend on the consent of the Beneficiary whether to turn back the Funds to the Originator. SCT Inst Scheme Rulebook § 4.3.2.3 [0]. Of course, if you are talking about fraud, yes: banks may answer positively to a recall, without contacting the beneficiary, when the beneficiary is a fraudster. Indeed, local laws often require that of banks, and therefore the standards define a dedicated protocol for that. Whe…

There are many cases where asking the beneficiary is not necessary, fraud is only one of them. And to clarify, it's not really "fraud", it's "claim by the originator that a fraud occurred". Which is a very different thing, and which matters immensely in practice.

There are three cases. Fraud is one, the two others are banking mistakes. First, when the bank sends the funds twice by accident. Second, when the bank was not meant to send the funds.

In both of those cases, the beneficiary bank is not even required to send the funds back. It can require consent from the beneficiary (which is its client, after all) if it wants.

Yet in both cases, the beneficiary is not even meant to receive the funds.

Fraud works the same way: unless local law requires it, the beneficiary bank is not required to send the funds back, and can rely on beneficiary consent.

Re: Visa, Mastercard, Stripe, and eBay exit Facebook’s Libra project

#350

Post by electriclove » Sun, Oct 13, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #316

electriclove wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do, just not anything of the sort from Facebook.

Then who else? It can hardly be built and promoted efficiently without somebody big behind it. Which corporation would sound better than Facebook? Banks certainly are not better than Facebook - they have been tracking and limiting us for much longer than Facebook exists and they seemingly lack modern tech expertise as well as progressive attitude.

Almost any other corporation would sound better than Facebook. Banks would be better than Facebook too. Ideally it would be better if it were an organization that supported privacy. Perhaps Signal or something in that vein?