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The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

smithsonianmag.com

211–220 of 276 posts

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#211
post #98

> And yet, for some reason, the idea persists in some peoples' minds that climate change is up for debate, or that climate change is no big deal. Hold it right there. Anthropogenic climate change (not just that the earth is warming, but that we are responsible) is a scientific hypothesis . Like all hypotheses, it cannot be proven true, only disproven by contradictory evidence. Doubt is a critical element in testing a…

I agree that there should be more emphasis on the mutability of scientific knowledge when things like this are presented, but I think your claims about the nature of scientific hypotheses have some problems:

Suppose I form a scientific hypotheses P. By your claim it cannot be proven true, just disproven later on with new evidence. That is, P is not probable, but ~P is.

Then, later, I form a second scientific hypotheses which happens to be the negation of the first: ~P. Again by your claim, ~P is unprovable but its negation, P can be proven.

This is a contradiction, either P can be proven or it can't.

I think you're actually talking about a scientific theory, which can not be proven true but which can--as evidence comes to light--be shown to be less useful than alternatives and therefore not fit for maintenance (which is not the same as being false).

The trouble with climate science is a separate one. Causation can not be separated from correlation without experiment. Experiment requires both a control variable and an experimental variable--but we only have one Earth to dick around with, so there are no experiments available which will generate a definitive causal argument for cause regarding the global climate.

Rather than arguing about whether there is cause (behavior that the Smithsonian rightly dislikes), I think that we should instead accept that the cause question is unknowable and focus instead on how we as a global culture intend to gamble on it. The debate would focus on similar issues, but be couched in different terms and I think there would be less digging in of heels.

I'd say that the Smithsonian, like most advocates of scientific authority, appears to be more worried about being right about P vs ~P, and less concerned about moving stasis forward so we can actually make the best gamble that we can.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#212

To me science is never settled, and anyone who claims climate crisis is pretty much definite has an incentive that has other hidden angles than we are led to believe. This is not a denial position, but is largely characterised so. Nothing in science is black-and-white, there are infinite shades of gray in between. Having said that, Freeman Dyson also seems to share this opinion, and I think it carries some weight: ht…

This is an almost perfectly textbook example of how to sew FUD to muddle a debate. Fortunately we seem to have turned a cultural corner in the last few months, so you're getting heavily downvoted, but even just a year ago this would have worked.

You have a response to what Dyson argues? No, so you instead cast a doubt on the entire argument - classic FUD.

Culture is not just influenced by scientific thought rather a lot of narrative based on emotion. Think how we are fighting LGBTQ+ and gender wars, when poverty is nowhere on any agenda!

BTW, I do not respond with position convenient for upvotes (a mentality I largely notice in the HN crowd), and it does not matter to me if the thread gets votes or not. I actually think these votes create perverse incentives that stiffle debate.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#213
post #98

> And yet, for some reason, the idea persists in some peoples' minds that climate change is up for debate, or that climate change is no big deal. Hold it right there. Anthropogenic climate change (not just that the earth is warming, but that we are responsible) is a scientific hypothesis . Like all hypotheses, it cannot be proven true, only disproven by contradictory evidence. Doubt is a critical element in testing a…

Sure, but there is debate and there is to cast FUD and lies using extreme or disingenuous cherry picking then claim it's a debate. Were someone to perform a study or experiment, any experiment, that cast genuine doubt on the consensus we could have a debate. Few would be naive enough to claim science is perfect or infallible. Models are imperfect, climate is a massive, complex thing with colossal hysteresis. So, Mr X…

Not remotely what is happening, is it?

Actually, I disagree. There's a lot of that happening. You just aren't exposed to it.

You say you'd be genuinely fascinated by a debate about how scientists could be mistaken. OK, let's find out if you mean it. The last debate we had here on this got derailed into a discussion of Conservative party policy. Let's keep it on science this time.

To start, let me say that I'm not a climate skeptic ... yet. I'm not actually sure what I am at the moment. Let's say I'm actually a science skeptic. I think groupthink, bias, corruption and outright incompetence in science is far more widespread than people intuit, and it can distort entire subfields of science. People are starting to realise this in fields like psychology due to the replication crisis but there are problems in many other fields. Now, I wasn't surprised to discover in this comments section that the article was fake propaganda (i.e. "all spending on conservative think tanks for any reason" is "funding denial"). In the past year or so I've dug into climate change skepticism to figure out what they think and why.

Here's what modern climate change skepticism looks like: lots and lots of blogs, with very long entries, consisting of large quantities of data analysis and graphs. If it's professionally funded it sure doesn't look like that. It looks like smart people who know maths and science writing about a field they understand but are outsiders in. They reveal a lot of things from the raw data that are deeply troubling and which I've never read about in the media. I feel strongly I should have read about them there because the concerns are reasonable. I've been able to check some of these claims for myself and found them to be true.

Most troubling to me has been the massive extent to which the global temperature record is now synthetic. Timeseries that once showed the world getting cooler have been fed into ever-more complex algorithms that radically change the entire datasets and any conclusions drawn from them. This article on a skeptic website is one that I double checked for myself:

https://realclimatescience.com/61-fake-data/

It makes a checkable claim - that one of the very few global temperature datasets, the one published by NOAA, comes in "raw" and "adjusted" forms, and that in the adjusted form nearly 60% of all claimed measurements from weather stations are in fact not real measurements at all but the output of a computer model. Additionally the quantity of simulated measurements has shot up massively over time: older temperature data is much less synthetic than the rest of algorithms.

I think here on HN we all know how slippery software can be, so learning this was quite a shock. I couldn't quite believe it in fact but the datasets are public files anyone can download, so I downloaded them and wrote some quick Python scripts to check. The scientists aren't hiding anything: the measurements that are "estimated" using their algorithms are marked with an E in the dataset, just as the skeptic blog claimed, and sure enough, calculating the ratios showed that 1970 for instance only 9% of values were the result of a computer model, but in 2018 it was over 40% and this year is even higher.

Look at this graph to get a sense of the growth of the issue:

https://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Pe...

And worse, if you take away the output of the models, global warming disappears entirely.

https://realclimatescience.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/US...

Now, NOAA have an explanation for this sort of thing: this sort of heavy adjustment is required because weather stations move around, come and go, readings are taken at different times of day, etc. So the data needs processing and cleaning before it's used. That's fine. I can buy that, at least to some extent. But this did make me curious about the code that's doing this adjustment, not least because I kept encountering climate blogs written by apparently rigorous authors who said certain artifacts made them suspect a software bug was introduced at some point.

So I downloaded NOAA's code to assess the quality of the software - software that appears to be required for the world to show any warming trend at all. I'm a software developer and always have been so I'm confident I can take part in this area of climatology, at least in a trivial way. I'd assumed that given the huge sums spent on research and incredible costs being thrown around for tackling climate change, the software in question would be under heavy development and written to the highest possible standards.

Unfortunately it's not. Global temperature data is the output of programs that look like every programmers worst nightmare: large piles of FORTRAN that trace directly back to 1985, that's been patched every few years in unauditable ways. All variables are global. As you would expect, they all have cryptic names. Functions start with explanations of which global variables are used and which aren't. Version control doesn't exist. There are occasional comments at the top of a function summarising that a change was made, so that's at least something, but are they comprehensive? There are no unit tests. None of it was written by professional software engineers. The algorithms and code are both extremely complicated. Much of it is undocumented. Not surprisingly, there is evidence in the comments of bugs being fixed only after going undetected for decades.

The program can be found here if you're curious:

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/ghcn/v3/software/52i/

This is NOAAs code. I mentioned there are only a few global datasets. One of the others comes from the notorious CRU at the University of East Anglia. When they got hacked their code leaked, and it's even worse. The CRU datasets are totally unreproducible: they appear to have asked a scientist to spend a few months on it at some point, and he wrote extensive notes about how frustrated he got:

http://di2.nu/foia/HARRY_READ_ME-20.html

Their code was much the same as above but apparently, much worse documented, and it seems to have suffered from undetected integer overflow bugs.

That's about where I've got up to. So I'd say the skeptics have got me listening in at least one basic way: all global warming theories are rooted in data that comes from a tiny number of people, processed using code that can't possibly have been reviewed by professionals, and those scientists have adjusted the raw data so much that temperature datasets that used to show average cooling (in the USA) now show rapid warming. That needs addressing just on the grounds of basic scientific integrity.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a legitimate criticism of a lot of the environmental movement, but the viewpoint you’re describing is not from the mainstream of conservative thought. Conservatives are invited to put themselves at the heart of tackling climate change, by proposing policies which can reduce carbon emissions at a fast enough rate without overturning the economic system. I personally think that is the most credible way of tackl…

> But first they have to stop denying warming is happening I believe that they can see that reducing carbon emissions is entirely incompatible with their usual line of thoughts and policies. They need either to renounce to their ideology, or deny/minimize climate change.

I don't think it's incompatible with their policies and principles, but it is incompatible with their current funding sources (coal, oil, Russia, Saudi) and voting base (old people who will die relatively soon soon).

Competition from China and EU showing it's possible and profitable and voters dying out might flip them surprisingly quickly.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#215

To me science is never settled, and anyone who claims climate crisis is pretty much definite has an incentive that has other hidden angles than we are led to believe. This is not a denial position, but is largely characterised so. Nothing in science is black-and-white, there are infinite shades of gray in between. Having said that, Freeman Dyson also seems to share this opinion, and I think it carries some weight: ht…

Unfortunately, making policy isn't a matter of epistemology. If we prevented ourselves from making any kind of decisions due to uncertainty about our empirical claims, we would be stuck in a kind of ethical paralysis that would prevent any kind of coordinated policy. To argue that inherent complexity means we should remain in a state of inaction is in itself a form of denialism. The fact that it is difficult to make…

I don't know any example where a legislation (especially which levied tax) was rolled back because the argument no longer held true. And hence my skepticism of "carbon taxes".

Additionally, I do not see anyone arguing a moderate position on legislation, which logically follows, considering the data may be wrong. Action based on potentially incorrect data is as big a problem as much as the null hypothesis you define. I am hard pressed to see a legislation that talks about reducing materialistic consumption, or living frugal, but we are very interested in increasing taxes. No?

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm saying that the arguments are ideologically motivated and are not put forth for their own merits.

Of course the arguments are ideologically motivated. Look at the left wing of the climate change movement, which has incorporated all sorts of social justice and primitivism elements into climate change. (Rejecting nuclear power, rejecting market solutions like carbon taxes, emphasizing “indigenous technology,” etc.) Look how the Green New Deal is being pitched as a reincarnation of the labor movement, a jobs program…

It's not weird that climate change solutions are left wing if the right wing is still in denial.

I personally think a carbon fee is the best solution but I had to go back and retype tax as fee as that well has been so thoroughly poisoned by people that the average Republican voter think the free market solution is actually a cunning plan to introduce communism.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#217
post #135
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s the distinct possibility of 8c change by 2100 under business as usual. 8c means palm trees at the arctic and no clouds ever forming. If you think that’s a tenable position for life then you’re fully on the denier side.

There have been several points in time where the earth was on average 8° higher. Furthermore your claim on "clouds will never form" is plainly wrong, and more likely than not, the opposite of what actually happens in a 8° hotter earth. Climate change is happening, no real doubt about that, but the mindless apocalyptic claims that are parroted around need to stop, because not only are they wrong, but they also decreas…

>There have been several points in time where the earth was on average 8° higher.

There also have been several points in time where the earth was experiencing mass extinctions and survived those just fine.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#218
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The official position of organizations like Heritage Foundation is not to deny that climate change is happening Not now , but the official position of, say, the Heritage Foundation has always been the most do-nothing position that they might hope much of the public would accept . As the evidence mounts they have to back off a bit. Let's take a quick trip back in time: Heritage Foundation in 2010: https://www.herita…

Regarding your earlier citations, the consensus for anthropogenic climate change is much more recent than you seem to assume. The IPCC was not formed until 1988. Even as of the 1995 report, the conclusions regarding the anthropogenic nature of observed warming was tepid: > An introductory preface to the SAR written by IPCC chairman Bolin and his co-chairs John T. Houghton and L. Gylvan Meira Filho highlighted "that o…

> But being slow to accept the evidence as it rolls in is not denialism

I recall many former AIDs denialists mounting similar rationalizations in the 00's.

"We did not deny, we were being scientific. We did not delay, we just were doing our due diligence. We were never pigheaded, we have principles, unlike the common rabble rushing to conclusions!"

In my view, the climate-change denialist impulse to rewrite their own history is both political and psychological: they need to distance themselves from the social consequences of their past rhetoric, while conversely self-affirming their idealized and supposedly-consistent motivations (aka resolving cognitive dissonance)

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an almost perfectly textbook example of how to sew FUD to muddle a debate. Fortunately we seem to have turned a cultural corner in the last few months, so you're getting heavily downvoted, but even just a year ago this would have worked.

You have a response to what Dyson argues? No, so you instead cast a doubt on the entire argument - classic FUD. Culture is not just influenced by scientific thought rather a lot of narrative based on emotion. Think how we are fighting LGBTQ+ and gender wars, when poverty is nowhere on any agenda! BTW, I do not respond with position convenient for upvotes (a mentality I largely notice in the HN crowd), and it does not…

The whole point of this thread is that the people who stand to lose money as we all draw the obvious and inevitable conclusions (stop burning coal/oil/gas ASAP) know they cannot win the debate, but they know the longer the "debate" drags on the more money they make. To continue to fall into the "debate" trap is to have already let them win. So yes, you're damn right i'm "stifling" this debate.

Whether you're a bad person using debate as a concern trolling topic, or just a dope who's inability to understand things and draw clear conclusions leaves you forever trapped in analysis paralysis, doesn't matter. Either way its time to stop humoring you.

Re: The Money Behind The Climate Denial Movement (2013)

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it's more interesting to find out who funds opposition to saving the world, right? If you look to see who funds climate change advocacy I expect you'll find governments doing most of it, with various ngo's doing most of the rest. Look at the ngo's and you'll find maybe soros or gates as prominent, but I don't think there will be much concentration: the environment movement is a real popular movement, not as…

Nah, the "environment movement" as you call it is obviously funded by the governments looking for an excuse to raise taxes. It's the governments giving away grant money to fund the "scientific consensus" (another ridiculous term). Meanwhile, this has nothing to do with "saving the world", only with the sovereign debt crisis. United States, EU and Japan are dead broke, they will try every ploy to raise taxes and steal…

>governments looking for an excuse to raise taxes.

In Germany energy taxes + VAT make up more than 50% of the price of gasoline and this has been the case for decades. If we switch to 100% electric cars then the government will lose 10% of its tax income. This is a strong motivation to avoid transportation policies that are good for the environment.

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