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System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

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Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#211

Post by opan »

isantop wrote: post #129
lucb1e wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we need another competing standard for such a small difference. Given how small the difference is, I'm in favor for whichever one is more common to avoid black bars below media or other ill-fitting content. As far as I can tell, 16:9 is much more common so I am happy to stick with that on any device and resolution.

I often have two editors in vertical columns side by side while I work, and it's nice to have a wider screen. Unfortunately with 16:10, they don't usually add to the vertical resolution but rather subtract from the horizontal resolution (2880x1800 16:10 versus 3200x1800 16:9).

What about 1920x1080 (16:9) vs 1920x1200 (16:10) and 2560x1440 (16:9) vs 2560x1600 (16:10)? I have seen it as the norm that height gets added rather than width subtracted.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#212

Post by m463 »

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #149
m463 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a purism 13 first version. I didn't have to unblock non-free repos when installing linux at first. (I now run arch) As to booting, it originally shipped with a bios, but later offered coreboot which I believe disabled the ME. https://puri.sm/posts/purism-librem-laptops-completely-disab... https://puri.sm/learn/blobs/ https://puri.sm/coreboot/

Your laptop is Broadwell according to the coreboot source. Sorry, that means you've got a ME. Part of one (the BUP) but a required ME nonetheless: https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine

They said it was neutralized.

--

I see now why your comment was so strongly worded...

"I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD"

Although what you're doing is laudable, I think your form of communication might alienate the kinds of people who might support your mission.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#213

Post by tpearson-raptor »

ac29 wrote: post #203
madez wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. If there is a restriction on redistribution of open down to the radio firmware WiFi devices, then it's dumb. If there is none, please don't spread incorrect speculation that there is.

> You, and everyone else for that matter, can go and buy a software defined radio (SDR) and play with a radio to your hearts liking. You almost certainly cant transmit legally, though (unless you have a amateur radio license, which lets you do all sorts of stuff with useful amounts of power).

That depends heavily on where you're transmitting (i.e what frequency and bandwidth you use) along with the power you're transmitting at.

First, as a ham radio operator, no, you can't just go and start blasting away from an SDR even in the ham bands. You have to follow strict rules, including a non-commercial content rule and you must not use encryption. The ham bands are for people to experiment with new radio technologies and more importantly communicate with one another using those technologies on a hobbyist level -- encryption and commercial use does not help those goals.

That being said, there are chunks of radio spectrum that are effectively "public domain" where you can transmit within certain ERP (effective radiated power) limits without the ham band restrictions on content, protocol, etc. Traditional WiFi lives in one -- the block set aside for microwave cooking devices, and therefore with a near-unusable noise floor for anything but short range communication like household WiFi.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#214

Post by rapsey »

dhanvanthri wrote: post #204

These computers runs blobs in the firmware and are not fully open source. I understand that modern users want modern performance, and that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market. But solutions exist, and if you are trying to market an open source computer, then give me an open source computer. What I hat…

> that there is only a niche market for a librebooted computer (mostly due to performance), and as a company, it's systems76's responsibility to meet the market

They have no responsibility of the sort.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#215

Post by tpearson-raptor »

m463 wrote: post #212
tpearson-raptor wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your laptop is Broadwell according to the coreboot source. Sorry, that means you've got a ME. Part of one (the BUP) but a required ME nonetheless: https://www.coreboot.org/Intel_Management_Engine

They said it was neutralized. -- I see now why your comment was so strongly worded... "I know we would be interested in assisting System76 (or other prebuilt system OEMs) to start offering POWER products as true open source, owner controlled alternatives to Intel and AMD" Although what you're doing is laudable, I think your form of communication might alienate the kinds of people who might support your mission.

It was that strongly worded because I've been fighting the "neutralized" rumor ever since it was started (presumably to try to save x86 market share among security conscious people, given its origin). I'm tired of doing so, and it's unfortunately showing, which means I'll probably have to stop talking about it. That's a loss for everyone, especially those who might unknowingly trust their lives to a hostile machine in certain repressive regimes and pay the ultimate price as a result.

This "neutralized" or "disabled" ME rumor is extremely persistent over literally years, probably due to feeding on what people want to hear versus what the reality of the situation is. Every time it's propagated not only does the person that believes it not get what they think they got, but it harms anyone trying to push for truly open computing vs. half-open computing.

The Cambridge English Dictionary states the following primary definition for the word "neutralize":

"1. to stop something from having an effect"

If you were to actually do that to the ME on a modern Intel system (or the PSP on a modern AMD system), here's what you would see:

This is because the system will not come out of reset until at least the BUP (and for newer systems more ME modules as well) have started. Those modules are signed, proprietary binaries for which source code will never be released per Intel's statements.

So, we have an apparent conflict. How can the ME be "neutralized", according to the standard English definition, while your machine still starts (thereby proving the ME has had at least some required effect prior to coreboot launching)?

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#216

Post by fulafel »

pgeorgi wrote: post #88
yellowapple wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relatedly: why no AMD GPUs? AMD's much more cooperative with Linux than Nvidia is or probably ever will be at this rate, and performance is great even with the FOSS drivers (as I've observed on both my Dell Precision 7510 and the Threadripper + Radeon rig I built about a year ago). Like, it's kinda maddening that "the" household name in Linux laptops (if there is such a thing) has zero laptops with an AMD GPU as an o…

AMD GPUs require AtomBIOS which contains bytecode (that is: blobs) to initialize the GPU. If you look at the Linux drivers, they come with an AtomBIOS bytecode interpreter for that purpose. There was some confrontation over that 10 years ago or so (see radeon vs. radeonhd drivers, one point of view is described at https://libv.livejournal.com/27799.html ) and the people in charge of Linux GPU drivers decided to go wi…

ACPI also works this way, no?

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#217

Post by tpearson-raptor »

isantop wrote: post #109
imglorp wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if there's a hardware method to disable ME, something involving the processor lines on the motherboard, before it even gets powered on?

The ME is partly responsible for powering up the main CPU. That kind of thing wouldn't be possible without a reimplementation of the ME from the start.

Which, it should be noted, is impossible due to Intel's hardware-enforced signature checks.

Even if a key were to be stolen from Intel it would then be illegal to use in all Western nations. The ME is off limits to everyone other than Intel and its partners, enforced by both the hardware signatures and some of the most heavily enforced (in terms of consequences) legislation on the face of the planet.

Of course that won't stop malware authors, who couldn't care less about replacing the ME firmware to make it secure, but do care very much about the fact that they can hack into the stock, signed Intel ME firmware, then install their malware in a nearly impossible to detect position.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#218

Post by enriquto »

jackpot51 wrote: post #137
enriquto wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it possible to replace coreboot by the fully free libreboot (without blobs)? what will stop working if you do that?

No, it is not possible to boot a Comet Lake Intel CPU without blobs.

That's a very sad state of affairs.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#219

Post by Iv »

tpearson-raptor wrote: post #200
Iv wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wanted to give you some love. It must be really harsh for morale dealing with the OSS crowd who will always consider you don't do enough without recognizing that you are helping building a road where none existed before. Kudos to you!

Honest question: why do you consider System76 to be building new roads by using locked hardware and offering partial open source firmware for it? Wouldn't the new roads kudos be more appropriately given to all of the folks that made real open hardware happen (RISC-V, OpenPOWER, etc.) years before this partly-open-source system announcement went out? In my mind the RISC-V folks especially were real trailblazers in thi…

Because not everything is about FSF-purity standards. Running a profitable company while providing as many open packages as possible is commendable. Pushing to open more is. But jeez, would it hurt to show some love to people who genuinely do care at least a bit about open firmware?

And yes, a lot of us do love OSS but also have clients who require windows compatibility. Some of us do deep learning and need good GPU/Cuda support. We all do compromises with OSS ideals, and it is GREAT to have people like System76 fill in that niche.

Otherwise the choice would be only between pure-FSF machine that run only some specific distribs of linux (I do own a novena, you know) or totally proprietary system that come only with windows and 50 GB of crapware. Without Systm 76, I would just be buying another DELL so thanks and kudos to them.

Thanks and kudos to the people who also uncompromisingly prepare an open and resilient ecosystem of open chips, open GPUs, open firmware.

But please do show some love to each other and dont get stuck in an absolutist position where you can't see the difference between people trying to find a market to OSS pieces and promoters of walled gardens.

Re: System76 Will Ship Linux Laptops With Coreboot-Based Open-Source Firmware

#220

Post by jakeogh »

opan wrote: post #205
jakeogh wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want a laptop where the all of the design files are open source. It would be worth a serious premium in addition to the premium I would pay for the open POWER system. The few we have now are maxed out at 4GB. Someone is going to do it...

Have you already seen the MNT Reform? https://mntre.com/reform/

Heh, I hadn't either. My dream machine has 4x NVMe, 128G of soldered on RAM (with power control), a real SDR, plenty of GPIO, ADC/DAC. 2x ethernet, serial, CAN, novena style fpga, second SOC cpu with dma... basically a hacked up LX2160A (for which the design files are available... but not open as far as I can tell). I tend to stick to a box for a long time... typing this on a t420s. I dont care about the battery, just give me enough time to move the plug or suspend it. Supercaps would be fine.
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