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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#241

Post by mstaoru »

WRT to "is iCloud backdoored" in China, I made a recent submission that didn't make it to the first page, but it's still relevant:

https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/10/chinas-new-cybersecurit...

> The inspection team has complete access to the network system. Inspection can cover both the technical aspects of the network system and the data/information maintained on the servers. See Article 10. The inspectors can fully access the system and they are permitted to copy any data they find. See Article 15. The only restriction on the inspectors copying the data in your company’s system is that the inspectors must provide you with a receipt. Though Article 10 “restricts” access to matters involving national security, the definition of national security in China is so broad that there is no real limitation on what can be accessed, copied and removed.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#243

Post by rasengan0 »

Designed by Apple in California; Made in China.

Chinese Communist Party (CCP) rules China.

Apple is moving to more Services.

Changing the pie chart takes time.

They have numbers to make this assessment for their shareholder stakeholders.

How many iDevices does the company sell?

The calculation is simple. CCP rules ... Apple

If HK blood is shed, Cook's pet Product(RED) may take on a different connotation.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#244

Post by wonnage »

China isn't like the US, where Apple can use their trillions and lawyer up. China will just shut you down and take your shit. Guess where hkmap.live and the Chinese App Store employees responsible for approving it end up when that happens. Similarly if the "moral" thing for these companies to do is to divest from China, then HK will only be served by Chinese companies, and good luck trying to provide a police tracking app there too.

This is totally different from the Rockets situation, where it really is just a matter of principle over money. If Morey and the NBA stick to their guns, the NBA can just leave China, and other than some hazy concepts of goodwill and cultural exchange, nothing is lost except money.

I'd rather have Apple and others in China than without. A Chinese company capitulates immediately to the government, a multinational at least can put up some semblance of resistance, with international relations as a bargaining chip.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#245

Post by conanshang »

tyfon wrote: post #240
ottolin wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it depends on your iCloud account location instead of where you are.

Does that mean that a Chinese citizen can register their account in the US or buy a US account and avoid having their data handed to the Chinese government? I personally think it's a bit more complicated than that.

Yes, a Chinese citizen can register an US or any other country’s account to avoid using GCBD data center. In fact, before Apple transferred all Chinese iCloud account data to GCBD, it sent out emails to warn related users, and instructed them to change regions if they don’t want to store personal data in China.

Although register an account is easy, maintain such account is a pain. First, not all Chinese citizen can get an international credit card that support US dollars, so no way to purchase apps; second, for those who can get one, App Store may not allow to use it because it’s not a valid US card; third, even they can use that card for purchasing apps, US App Store, iTunes Store may not have those Chinese specific apps or music; last not to mention that the behavior of an US account using non US card outside US for a really lone time may trigger anti fraud protection.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#247

Post by Thorrez »

wonnage wrote: post #244

China isn't like the US, where Apple can use their trillions and lawyer up. China will just shut you down and take your shit. Guess where hkmap.live and the Chinese App Store employees responsible for approving it end up when that happens. Similarly if the "moral" thing for these companies to do is to divest from China, then HK will only be served by Chinese companies, and good luck trying to provide a police trackin…

>Similarly if the "moral" thing for these companies to do is to divest from China, then HK will only be served by Chinese companies

Would it be possible to divest from all of China except Hong Kong?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#248

Post by wonnage »

capableweb wrote: post #34

It's already known that iCloud in China is operated by a state-owned telecom (GCBD) see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21217920 so they could use the data to track the protestors. And iPhone usages is comparatively small according to https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/china (Android 79% and iPhone 20%) Then https://hkmap.live/ is available as a website. So why the outcry about this? In the end, f…

I'm assuming that the website still works, since it's probably the source of data for the app anyway.

At the end of the day, Apple taking down the app seems like an expected outcome, and HK is outside of the great firewall, so anyone can still access the site. What's the problem?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#249

Post by achow »

threeseed wrote: post #109
rndgermandude wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if the alleged crimes allegedly abused the app (something certainly not endorsed by the app makers), the same can be said for a lot of other apps. Thieves use facebook to look for people who give details on when they are on vacation for example. Snapchat and Skype and kik and whatapp and every other social messaging and social media app and service is abused by pedo criminals grooming their victims. etc But thos…

This app specifically lists where the police are. That is its primary purpose. Comparing it to Facebook or Snapchat makes absolutely no sense.

Actually makes lot of sense. From the blog..

..the app aggregates reports from Telegram, Facebook and other sources.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#250

Post by select-all »

baddox wrote: post #27
dictum wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not intimate enough with any of the parties involved in this situation, so my reply will also be comfortably generic: Yes, it's a reasonable demand. If public opinion is asking something of Apple, and its CEO chooses to answer, every aspect of the answer is open to scrutiny. Gruber indeed lists the specific evidence he would expect: > - When was HKmap.live “used maliciously to target individual officers for viole…

I'm just not sure what that evidence could look like. Like I said, don't we have sufficient evidence that this app was used to organize protests in Hong Kong, and that some protesters in Hong Kong committed violence against officers and against individuals and property where no police were present? As for Hong Kong law, I can agree that it might be nice to cite a specific law, but I also don't find it at all difficul…

Apple should've given some kind of overview of how exactly the app was used to target police officers. Knowing that the app was aggregating info on police presence, I can see a dozen ways to maliciously use this info.

For example, it could have been used to identify locations where police is about to withdraw to target last remaining officers. Or to identify a good place for an ambush with good escape options and no video surveillance and then lure police into the ambush by reporting a minor accident. Information about location and movements of the adversary is invaluable for exactly this reason - it gives the other side advantage in planning.

If something like this really did happen and if Apple has any specifics, it should totally release it down to exact location and time of incidents and the aftermath. These are very serious allegations that need substantial proofs.

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