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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#201

Post by solidsnack9000 »

dmix wrote: post #161
bduerst wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, Waze is owned by Google and not available in China because they did not capitulate to the Chinese government, so maybe that's a bad analogy.

The police and their unions have complained a lot in western countries about Waze. It’s a very controversial feature to them too. Which shows what type of government they’d build if we keep saying yes to them. This app is excluded to HK as well, it’s not like they have to appease China by proxy considering their app stores are already different.

It is really going too far to say that police would build some kind of non-free government, just because they complain about an app that helps people avoid getting caught for speeding.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#202

Post by jm4 »

flukus wrote: post #182
ordinaryradical wrote: post #4

This is a huge stain on the company, the brand, and Cook’s leadership. It’s not just censorship—it’s active cooperation with an authoritarian power under the fig leaf of TOS violations. Truly astonishing.

And the people who purchase apple products. They gave Apple this level of control in the first place.

Oh, get off your high horse. Which devices are you using from a company that isn’t similarly large and doesn’t do the same thing?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#203

Post by freeopinion »

Aloha wrote: post #46
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

The US isn't a closed market and can't effectively eject Apple from the market. While I disagree with the choice Apple made, it's a very rational one. Permanent removal from China would probably be worse for freedom in China over 20 years, and massively worse for Apple in the short term. No company should be expected to back or foment a revolution somewhere, from my perspective they're looking out for their own beet…

> they're looking out for their own beet [sic] interest and the best interest of their customers

I'm sure you think you just explained this, but it completely escaped me. How is yanking this app in the best interest of their customers?

Let's break "their customers" into 3 groups:

1. Protestors in HK. It clearly isn't in their best interest . So not those customers, right?

2. Non-protestors in China (including HK). You're argument is that this way they can still enjoy Apple products? Even though those products can no longer be trusted not to betray them to any whim of a hostile government?

3. Customers outside China. The argument here seems to be that Apple makes lots of money in China and that an Apple that makes tons of money in China and outside of China is better for non-Chinese customers than an Apple that makes tons of money outside of China but not inside of China.

This third group and justification is the most interesting to me. I stipulate that I have put words in your mouth. So let me take those words out of your mouth and just say this is the only way I can make sense of what you wrote.

When I follow this train of thought the only way I can see it being true is if Apple's very existence is threatened if some other company were able to fill the void in China, then leverage that to gain so much market power outside of China that they could squash Apple. And even that alone doesn't make things worse for (former) Apple customers. The only way that would be worse is if this hypothetical competitor's products were actually worse than Apple's and only able to dominate the market because of the market power they enjoy due to Apple's absence in the Chinese market.

That is such a stretch that I feel your argument should be dismissed. Can you fill in the holes of my understanding to help me see things your way?

I think this is an extremely important discussion because it seems to be the mindset held by a lot of decision makers. Is the NBA worried that they will stop making many $millions if they don't expand into China? That is, not only will they not double or triple their profits; they will actually stop making money outside of China? Is Disney worried about this? Are Microsoft and Amazon? Is it a fight for survival? Or is it pure naked greed?

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#204

Post by dmix »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #201
dmix wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The police and their unions have complained a lot in western countries about Waze. It’s a very controversial feature to them too. Which shows what type of government they’d build if we keep saying yes to them. This app is excluded to HK as well, it’s not like they have to appease China by proxy considering their app stores are already different.

It is really going too far to say that police would build some kind of non-free government, just because they complain about an app that helps people avoid getting caught for speeding.

Of course, if that was the only example.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#205

Post by panda88888 »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #197
panda88888 wrote: post #144

I am not surprised by this. I always thought Tim Cook talks a good talk, but fails to walk the walk when the stakes at hand is real. He’s fine with standing up to the CIA/FBI because he knows it’s good PR for business and the US government cannot do anything without a lengthy court fight that is mostly fair. Same with other US domestic issues such as DACA, sane sex marriage, etc. But when it comes to the PRC governme…

When did he stand up to the CIA? As far as standing up to the FBI, the impetus behind that was to cover up another lie. Apple had told customers "it's not technically feasible" for Apple to respond to data requests and got a mountain of free press for it. The FBI showed a method by which Apple could obtain the encrypted data on those devices. Soon after, that claim disappeared from Apple's "Privacy" marketing page. h…

My mistake. It was just FBI.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#206

Post by summerlight »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #198
panda88888 wrote: post #144

I am not surprised by this. I always thought Tim Cook talks a good talk, but fails to walk the walk when the stakes at hand is real. He’s fine with standing up to the CIA/FBI because he knows it’s good PR for business and the US government cannot do anything without a lengthy court fight that is mostly fair. Same with other US domestic issues such as DACA, sane sex marriage, etc. But when it comes to the PRC governme…

If the alternative were to lose manufacturing capacity, it wouldn’t be “...compromising immediately when $$$ is at stake.”. What’s at stake then is the future of the company — everyone’s jobs, industries that have come to rely on Macs, the consumers that have come to rely on iPhones. Just folding up and losing the $$$ isn’t the path of courage here.

And still Apple hasn't even begun to migrate off from Chinese manufacturers while Samsung has shut down most of its factories in China and heavily invested into Vietnam supply chains. The only meaningful explanation is that Apple still gains a significant chunk of its margin from the China market while Samsung has lost almost all of its market share there. I'm pretty sure that Apple had a clear understanding of this kind of political risks and was willing to take it in pursuit of profit maximization.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#207

Post by kerkeslager »

mistersquid wrote: post #29
artfulhippo wrote: post #2

Apple caved under pressure from China. The explanation Cook gave is not just an embarrassment, it calls into question the veracity of all of his other statements. Why should users believe that (closed source) iMessage encryption is free from backdoors when we know that Cook will dance around sensitive truths? And why should the US government be satisfied with a fully encrypted iMessage given that Apple will cave to d…

I agree that Apple's stated rationale for removing the HKmap.live app is embarrassing and the removal is a capitulation to China's government. The reasons China's government has decried the app are bogus, but those false reports and allegations do not originate with Apple. However, Apple appears to be accepting those reasons at face value and probably because Apple is kowtowing. Regarding whether iMessage is free fro…

> However, Apple has not to date lied about what they are doing and we do not yet have a reason to doubt their representations about the security of their encryption.

Did you read the original link, or the memo it linked to?

"the app was being used maliciously to target individual officers for violence and to victimize individuals and property where no police are present."

This was written by Tim Cook, speaking for Apple. That is Apple lying about what they are doing.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#208

Post by panda88888 »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #198
panda88888 wrote: post #144

I am not surprised by this. I always thought Tim Cook talks a good talk, but fails to walk the walk when the stakes at hand is real. He’s fine with standing up to the CIA/FBI because he knows it’s good PR for business and the US government cannot do anything without a lengthy court fight that is mostly fair. Same with other US domestic issues such as DACA, sane sex marriage, etc. But when it comes to the PRC governme…

If the alternative were to lose manufacturing capacity, it wouldn’t be “...compromising immediately when $$$ is at stake.”. What’s at stake then is the future of the company — everyone’s jobs, industries that have come to rely on Macs, the consumers that have come to rely on iPhones. Just folding up and losing the $$$ isn’t the path of courage here.

I would counter by saying that Apple put itself in this position by not 2nd and 3rd sourcing contract manufacturers. Tim understood the risks, but he chose to profit rather than de-risk.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#209

Post by lern_too_spel »

OrgNet wrote: post #131
chillacy wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean, being a victim of prism? When tech companies found out about the NSA wiretapping unencrypted connections between their datacenters they pretty much flipped out and got serious about security against nation-state attacks.

I don't. PRISM doesn't work how you described it, as far as I know... It is basically a backdoor to Apple for the NSA (so whatever Apple can see, the NSA can also see).

PRISM doesn't work the way you've described it. It ingests data from the FBI's Data Intercept Technology Unit, which handles court ordered wiretaps on individual accounts from Internet communications services. You can see this in the slide Snowden leaked.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/prism-...

https://medium.com/@alecmuffett/how-to-talk-about-prism-and-...

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#210

Post by idlewords »

baddox wrote: post #9

Can I play devil's advocate for just a moment? Gruber asks for evidence. His only complaints seems to be the lack of evidence and a question of whether the app violates local (Hong Kong) law. Cook's memo directly addresses both of those issues: > However, over the past several days we received credible information, from the Hong Kong Cybersecurity and Technology Crime Bureau, as well as from users in Hong Kong, that…

No one has pointed to the Hong Kong law this app is supposed to be violating, including the Hong Kong authorities, who when asked basically said "go ask Apple".

Couple that with the fact that no officers have been targeted individually in Hong Kong protests since they began, and you begin to see that the whole thing sounds fishy.

What is the law being broken that no one knows about, and the cases of violence no one has heard of?

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