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Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

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Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#141

Post by dirtyid »

dmitrygr wrote: post #127
dirtyid wrote: post #119

In the last week, HK police vehicles have been singled out, ambushed, officers mobbed and attacked with molotov cocktails. Rioters are shot in self protection. Mainland owned stores are targeted when police are not near. All aided by this app that is facilitating extreme violence on the ground. Of course this doesn't add up to western main stream media news readers who were presented with one-sided peaceful protest n…

This is all completely normal for a revolution in a region that wants to be independent. It's about time everyone recognized that that's what it is all about. Or did you truly believe that Hong Kong and everyone in it were okay ceasing to have freedom in 2047?

I believe 0.005% of the population can't revolt against an emerging superpower. People in the west think it's 7 million protesters when the reality is 7/1400 million. It's a fringe movement rooted in (justifiable) structural dissatisfaction expressed through bigotry against the only people who can help them. Ever considered why no protesters had the idea of waving the Chinese flag and petitioning the Chinese for change? Why they target mainland people, businesses and institutions while waving imperialist flags and using imperial insults, like Chee-na? The belief in the bigotry is what makes the belief in revolution impossible. Further the combination of bigotry, instability with democracy will ruin prospects of democracy across mainland and peace across the straight. The ideal that westerners think independence is remotely in the cards and actively cheering it on because it's good popcorn is incredibly worrying. Separatism/reunification is the #1 Chinese issue since founding of CPC and a clearly articulated redline with anyone remotely familiar with the issue. The longer HK drama draws out, the greater the chance of a hot war in Taiwan in 20-30 years.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#142

Post by shakna »

baddox wrote: post #49
shakna wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would it not make more sense, in such a highly charged political environment, that Apple should tie their own hands and only remove the app at the mandate of a court order? That would make it obvious that Apple is complying with law, and that they haven't "bowed to pressure" from either side. If there is a claim that the app is violating law, then that should be validated by a judicial process, not by the operating n…

I think that could be a valid choice for Apple to make, and I think reasonable people could disagree about which choice Apple ended up making. But it seems very plausible to me that Apple was presented with credible information that this app was being used to organize violent attacks and that Apple made a reasonable choice to ban the app according to Apple's policies about following local laws as well as Apple's inte…

Absolutely. The problem with Apple's, and many other companies, early response policies is it depends on the source of truth, such as the police, not being complicit.

If they always wait for a court order, PR disasters happen, and polticians dredge up 'think of the children' arguments.

If they don't wait for an order they can become part of the machinery of ill-intentioned polticial or commercial forces.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't.

However, I still think waiting for an order, especially in tense environments, is the right moral choice. I concede it probably isn't the right economic choice a lot of the time.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#143

Post by millstone »

SiVal wrote: post #88
derefr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For one thing, pretty much every Android device made for the Chinese market has had its OS adulterated in some way, at OEM build time, at the behest of the Chinese government. Whereas, Chinese resellers can't really adulterate an iPhone's OS; there's just the one OS image (per model), signed and sealed by Apple, and if China wants to put a rootkit on it, they'd have to convince Apple to put it into that same base-ima…

No point in debating the details of which tech is more secure or what is encrypted or adulterated or whatever. Apple has made it clear that they will make sure the Chinese gov't gets what it wants. Even in a supposedly "autonomous" Hong Kong, China complains and Apple submits--flags, apps, speech, whatever. No need to even go to court, and certainly no point. So Apple has made it clear that if China wants something,…

It's not "whatever." Apple has removed emoji and an app; they don't provide the government with backdoors or biometric data. There really is a line.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#144

Post by panda88888 »

I am not surprised by this. I always thought Tim Cook talks a good talk, but fails to walk the walk when the stakes at hand is real. He’s fine with standing up to the CIA/FBI because he knows it’s good PR for business and the US government cannot do anything without a lengthy court fight that is mostly fair. Same with other US domestic issues such as DACA, sane sex marriage, etc.

But when it comes to the PRC government, he caves immediately because the threat is real. He knows he CAN and probably WILL lose access the Chinese market and manufacturing capacity, and there’s no court system to appeal—-the system is rigged and controlled by the CCP. Therefore, principles bow down before revenue.

Personally I don’t care what Tim Cook and Apple does to get and keep access to Chinese market, but I am disgusted by hypocrite with the high rhetoric about privacy, human rights, etc., but compromising immediately when $$$ is at stake.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#145

Post by bgee »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #102
bgee wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iCloud in China is operated by a state-owned telecom ... so they could use the data to track the protestors. Please stop spreading lies unless you have evidence to back up your claim. From [0]: "Apple has never made user data, whether stored on the iPhone or in iCloud, more technologically accessible to any country's government." Disclaimer: mainlander here. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21209190

Is that true of the company they've contracted to manage iCloud in China?

Sorry the parent post was referring to the latter part: "so they could use the data to track the protestors"; it is a known fact that iCloud in China is managed by a Chinese company starting in 2018/01 [0].

[0] (link in Chinese): https://www.zhihu.com/question/265371940/log

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#146

Post by bduerst »

mercutio2 wrote: post #110
dmix wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not ban Waze for their police reporting feature?

Is police reporting illegal in the countries in which Waze operates? I don’t buy that HKMap did anything illegal, but asking for equivalence with an app which is doing something vaguely similar in a jurisdiction where any of those things are perfectly legal seems to be missing the point.

Ironically, Waze is owned by Google and not available in China because they did not capitulate to the Chinese government, so maybe that's a bad analogy.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#147

Post by millstone »

untog wrote: post #114
Aperocky wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they would be replaced by local Chinese companies. Are you saying that would have no effect on freedom for the users?

If Apple capitulates to every demand the Chinese government makes then perhaps there isn’t much of a difference.

Right. But of course the Chinese government has asked Apple for a backdoor, and (to our knowledge) Apple has not provided that. So long as that's true, an iPhone really is one of the most secure option for Chinese residents.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#149

Post by bduerst »

LgWoodenBadger wrote: post #135
protomyth wrote: post #31

Apple's supply chain is China-based. If Apple doesn't pull app, then China's leadership probably shuts down that supply chain. China's leadership doesn't give a damn about Apple or Foxcomm or even the NBA. It's probably a real blow to Tim Cook since he is famous for setting up such an amazing supply chain. He put Apple in such a dangerous position. He caved and made up an excuse.

If China shuts down Apple’s manufacturing in China then you will see a mass exodus of all US-ordered manufacturing from China. If it can happen to Apple it can happen to anyone.

Blocking Google and Wikipedia didn't cause an exodus of internet companies.

Re: Tim Cook’s Company-Wide Email on Hkmap.live Doesn’t Add Up

#150

Post by unethical_ban »

Aperocky wrote: post #67
stupidcar wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the complaint is not that Cook is not providing direct evidence, and it is a complete misrepresentation to suggest so. It makes your protestations of disinterest rather suspect, as those of supposed "devil's advocates" so often seem to be. The complaint is that Cook's claims are extraordinary and seemingly impossible on their face because of the fundamental nature of the app in question. Its purpose is to show th…

I don't understand why people would flag comments as 'suspect', have we reached McCarthyism or the hyper sensitive Chinese level yet? Why is it impossible for people to address the opinions and reasons within a comment specifically without resorting to 'suspecting the motives of the individual'? In other words, why does the motives of the individual matters to you if the opinion expressed within the comments can stan…

When something is not merely wrong, or foolish, but seems so indicative of failing to comprehend the article, it stands to reason that it may not be in good faith.

In other words, the person you responded to specifically stated that the comment CANNOT stand by itself; it supposed things opposite of what was said in the article.

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