Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes • Hacker News Board

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#101

Post by rayiner » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:04 PM UTC

blantonl wrote: post #87

roenxi wrote: post #17

At least everyone can agree that government taxing should be higher than government spending^. This article is mainly baiting rich v poor division; on a close read it doesn't actually say much. The real issue is that everything in general has become so complicated that nobody has a hope of understanding how it works. Unless we have accountants on deck today nobody really has a feel for how much the rich pay in taxes…

The '70%' regime was then reinvesting all those profits right back into their businesses to avoid those taxes, which spurred job growth and R&D innovation. The simple reality is that today's "regime" simply stockpiles that wealth for their own benefit and then gives out a few token amounts to charitable causes and thinks that will stave off the pitchforks when the uprising begin. Giving money to charity doesn't clean…

This argument makes no sense. The super rich aren’t keeping their money under a mattress. They’re investing in VC, public markets, etc. It’s the exact same result, except instead of investing in the same company, profits can be invested in a different company.

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#102

Post by rafaelvasco » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:05 PM UTC

Philanthropy, at least in theory, directly benefits people; Taxes don't; We should keep both; The focus of every government must be the well-being of people, and most importantly, setting things so that the people have better opportunities to be the owners of their own lives and being able to care for themselves, returning value to the country and the World. Yes we need money for that, but when people focus on money instead of caring for others, corruption ensues. It is inevitable.

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#103

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #101

blantonl wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The '70%' regime was then reinvesting all those profits right back into their businesses to avoid those taxes, which spurred job growth and R&D innovation. The simple reality is that today's "regime" simply stockpiles that wealth for their own benefit and then gives out a few token amounts to charitable causes and thinks that will stave off the pitchforks when the uprising begin. Giving money to charity doesn't clean…

This argument makes no sense. The super rich aren’t keeping their money under a mattress. They’re investing in VC, public markets, etc. It’s the exact same result, except instead of investing in the same company, profits can be invested in a different company.

...whereupon they reap the profits. The new reality is, the money men own most everything, and skim the vast majority of benefit from every industry.

It's not about how much money is in the system. Its about who benefits from it.

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#104

Post by logicchains » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

xtian wrote: post #49

ctdonath wrote: post #7

Why the notion that gov't should be the provider & arbiter of all? Why do none of the "they don't pay enough taxes" crowd not realize the rich do so much of, and more efficiently, what the gov't purports to with massive overhead? Job creation, charity, arts funding, lowering costs of necessities, etc - and at levels & locations which gov't would never achieve. The "tax/soak the rich" notion seems almost entirely puni…

These individuals accumulated their massive wealth by utilizing the infrastructure and economic substrate of our society. So the people who make up that society have a right to decide democratically how some of those resources are allocated. That’s the deal. Even assuming you are right, there are many more important values than mere efficiency. Governments are the only bodies which can realistically pursue the values…

Everybody had equal access to the infrastructure and economic substrate, billionaires just made better use of it to generate more value, so why should they have to pay more?

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#105

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

pintxo wrote: post #99

malvosenior wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust politicians as much as I trust billionaires: not at all. In fact as the OP points out at least the occasional billionaire will do something productive for society. The same can't be said for the government. > [citation needed] In fact, there's an easy counter-example. Healthcare. More expensive than any public system, with worse outcomes for the general population. The only reason health care is so expensive…

Assuming you live in the USA, the simple fact, that you can leave your house and have access to a (still) working transportation infrastructure and do not need (I hope) private security to protect your life and property is proof that the Government does something productive for society. I am as off by a lot of recent Government actions and their seeming inability to fix obvious issues. But to argue they to nothing pr…

It's a mixed bag. My daughter-in-law was doing a rotation in Baltimore at Johns Hopkins, and the commissioner of police(?) that lived on her block was mugged. She definitely didn't feel safe there, and will not likely accept a residency there because of the security situation.

So in Baltimore at least, the local government has fundamentally failed at some of the things mentioned.

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#106

Post by logicchains » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

tangent128 wrote: post #79

ColanR wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Everyone deserves a say in the allocation of resources. How about we amend that to, 'Everyone deserves a say in the allocation of resources, in proportion to their demonstrated ability to amass and manage resources'. Elon Musk figured out how to make a ton of money; he has more right to determine its use than some bureaucrat in an office. You say that government is our method of collective allocation, but it's real…

How is the ability to amass resources relevant to competence in determining the appropriate allocation? That's like saying that winning a game makes you competent to referee it.

You amass resources by investing (allocating) them well. If you invest poorly, you lose what you invested. Over time, the person who invested best will have the most resources.

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#107

Post by dwrowe » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

alphabettsy wrote: post #51

dwrowe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a tired take. Is it not possible to just believe that a person shouldn’t HAVE to pay more (percentage-wise) in taxes because they’re successful - while at the same time, be fine with the credits / deductions available to the less fortunate? I can’t be the unicorn here.

Without thinking too much I’d agree, but I have a hard time saying someone making $25k/yr should pay 25% of their income compared to someone making $1mil/yr. If the very wealthiest weren’t paying lower effective tax rates than the people making $200k/yr. that would be a start.

They're not paying 25% of their income in taxes - they're paying maybe 1-2% ? https://files.taxfoundation.org/20190719104737/TF_2018TaxDat...

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#108

Post by logicchains » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:12 PM UTC

noahth wrote: post #11

ctdonath wrote: post #7

Why the notion that gov't should be the provider & arbiter of all? Why do none of the "they don't pay enough taxes" crowd not realize the rich do so much of, and more efficiently, what the gov't purports to with massive overhead? Job creation, charity, arts funding, lowering costs of necessities, etc - and at levels & locations which gov't would never achieve. The "tax/soak the rich" notion seems almost entirely puni…

Everyone deserves a say in the allocation of resources. The way we accomplish that is through government. Elon Musk is not improving the environment, he's launching cars into space for giggles while mistreating his workers.

Resources don't just appear out of thin air, someone has to invest in producing/creating/mining them. Why should somebody who made no contribution to creating something have any say in how it's used?

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#109

Post by bonoboTP » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #71

alphabettsy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should the average American pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes? Allowing the rich to choose what organizations and causes are worth supporting is certainly not Democratic. For example, you have private schools getting massive amounts of donations from Alumni, while the local elementary is shutting off water fountains because of lead exposure and they can’t afford to update the plumbing. I also don’t…

Why should the average American pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes? They shouldn't. All should pay $0 taxes. We expect adults be financially independent after a few decades. The gov't, with its ability to literally make money along with other unique powers, should be financially independent after 225 years.

The gov't isn't supposed to be some entity on its own but an orchestrator of society, balancing things, running ahead of feedback loop effects etc.

The whole concept of "financially independent govt" sounds like they are spending the tax earnings just on themselves. Of course they have overhead costs, but the main function of the govt is to redistribute.

They are supposed to be like the heart that pumps the blood around, and doesn't just use it up all for itself.

Re: Forget philanthropy. The super-rich should be paying proper taxes

#110

Post by logicchains » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

pintxo wrote: post #99

malvosenior wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I trust politicians as much as I trust billionaires: not at all. In fact as the OP points out at least the occasional billionaire will do something productive for society. The same can't be said for the government. > [citation needed] In fact, there's an easy counter-example. Healthcare. More expensive than any public system, with worse outcomes for the general population. The only reason health care is so expensive…

Assuming you live in the USA, the simple fact, that you can leave your house and have access to a (still) working transportation infrastructure and do not need (I hope) private security to protect your life and property is proof that the Government does something productive for society. I am as off by a lot of recent Government actions and their seeming inability to fix obvious issues. But to argue they to nothing pr…

>Also, I'd like to highlight that millions of citizens are only healthy/alive because of regulations

Citation needed? There were practically no regulations a century ago compared to now, and while more people died then, it certainly wasn't millions (unless you're counting something like vaccines as "regulation").