How bullying may shape adolescent brains • Hacker News Board

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#21

Post by afandian » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 10:57 AM UTC

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate.

Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back"

Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people"

I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum.

These two aren't easily reconcilable. Approach-2-type-people, such as myself, think that this is the only real way to reduce harm and that approach 1 only makes everything worse, and continues the cycle of abuse.

I think it's emcumbent on approach 2 to try and understand why people act like approach 1.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#22

Post by swebs » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 10:58 AM UTC

codegladiator wrote: post #6

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

> Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment ?

>So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment?

Are we reading the same Hacker News? I see that statement expressed in like every fifth thread.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#23

Post by zozbot234 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:05 AM UTC

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Most of the worst/most visible bullies probably have narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies. Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. "Their own psychology" is all about thinking of the world in zero-sum terms, where they win if others lose.

The only approach that can partially make up for such an attitude is cognitive-behavioral training, and then only for those who are smart enough that the lessons can sink in, overcoming their distrust of others, authority figures etc.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#24

Post by jacobush » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:07 AM UTC

pdpi wrote: post #20

codegladiator wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullies bully when they know they can get away with it (so does criminals). I just fail to follow your narrative. I would alternatively suggest to make the punishment severe and make sure bullies can't get away with it.

The question you're not asking is "why are people engaging in these behaviours?" You don't have to deter people from engaging in bad behaviour if those people don't feel motivated to engage in those behaviours in the first place.

They get motivated when their peers condone it. You and I are the bully. We just need the “right” environment.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#25

Post by chimprich » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

afandian wrote: post #21

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

> Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back"

This seems to be the approach used by many (most?) people in online forums when discussing controversial topics. "Your opinion hurts me, so I'm going to be as offensive as possible in return". It doesn't seem to work very well. HN is maybe a bit more approach #2.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#26

Post by luckylion » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:10 AM UTC

Juliate wrote: post #12

luckylion wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's focus on the actual victims first though, and stop the bullies. There is a meta-argument with regards to free will and whether and how much choice we have in the things we do, but that's a very different discussion (albeit an interesting one) and shouldn't be confused with the one about the bully's acts and immediate (and long term) results.

Taking care of the victims today does not exclude taking care of the bullies as well. Stopping them does not mean only punishment, but counselling (and sometimes, because they were themselves victims of abuses).

Given that resources are limited, choices have to be made regarding priority.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#27

Post by saagarjha » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

zozbot234 wrote: post #23

devoply wrote: post #2

Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else than their own psychology.

Most of the worst/most visible bullies probably have narcissistic or sociopathic tendencies. Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place. "Their own psychology" is all about thinking of the world in zero-sum terms, where they win if others lose. The only approach that can partially make up for such an attitude is cognitive-behavioral training, and the…

> Counseling is totally useless on those folks because they don't really have normal emotions in the first place.

I think most bullies are not psychopaths, considering that many don’t stay bullies their entire life.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#28

Post by TrackerFF » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:13 AM UTC

Here's my take:

For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence.

If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact, many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence.

It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies,

If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no talent, are ugly, and a loser, then that's something which probably follow you into adulthood. I know I've seen it many times, with kids from my jr. HS - many still struggle today, as adults in their 30s.

Low confidence and poor self-esteem / self-worth is a vicious cycle, and will/can affect all parts of your life down the road.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#29

Post by afandian » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:14 AM UTC

chimprich wrote: post #25

afandian wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment has obviously split opinion here, but I think it mirrors the way that society is split in the justice debate. Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" Approach 2: "We should try to understand why people hurt other people" I used to think these were correlated with political spectrum (approach 1 on the right, appraoch 2 on the left). But these patterns happen across the spectrum. The…

> Approach 1: "People who hurt other people should be hurt back" This seems to be the approach used by many (most?) people in online forums when discussing controversial topics. "Your opinion hurts me, so I'm going to be as offensive as possible in return". It doesn't seem to work very well. HN is maybe a bit more approach #2.

I certainly find the centre of gravity on HN interesting. As a European I wonder how much is US centric, tech or silicon valley.

Everyone has unknown biases though. I'm sure that most people are a mix, with the result of cognitive dissonance.

Re: How bullying may shape adolescent brains

#30

Post by zozbot234 » Thu, Oct 10, 2019, 11:16 AM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #24

pdpi wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question you're not asking is "why are people engaging in these behaviours?" You don't have to deter people from engaging in bad behaviour if those people don't feel motivated to engage in those behaviours in the first place.

They get motivated when their peers condone it. You and I are the bully. We just need the “right” environment.

Peers who condone bullying are probably being manipulated into doing so, by someone with narcissistic traits who is skilled at whipping up hate towards the intended victims. It's not a normal attitude at all, it's very much a red flag that something quite nasty is going on.