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Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

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Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#161

Post by roca »

UIZealot wrote: post #141

It helps to know a little bit about what's been going on in Hong Kong, before you all decide to line up and take your daily dump on China. It all started a few months ago when someone committed a crime in Taiwan and fled to Hong Kong. To prevent HK from becoming a safe haven for criminals, the Chief Executive of HK proposed a new law to facilitate extradition of these crime suspects from HK to various jurisdictions i…

That is a very one-sided summary. For example you omitted the important fact that Taiwan's government very early made it clear that they did not want the extradition law. You omitted any mention of police violence. You omitted how China pressured Cathay Pacific to identify and punish its staff involved in (peaceful, legal) protests. You decline to explain why the HK government refused to officially withdraw the extradition law for months after declaring it "dead". Etc.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#162

Post by simonh »

m0xte wrote: post #138
simonh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure th…

There's a fatal flaw to this approach though. The world is regressing into surveillance because quite frankly the mechanisms are already there and it's easy. What happens if someone in the US or the UK start using the justification of "well you did this in China so we'll legislate so you do that here" . Someone has to make a stand and the people running the apparatus purposed to make this possible are morally culpabl…

Apple don't run the apparatus in China, they refused to do so. iCloud services in China are run by a Chinese company.

We can't outsource our responsibility as citizens of democracies to a corporation. Apple has done a heck of a lot more than most of us on HN in this fight, by standing up to unreasonable law enforcement requests for access to iPhone data, when the other phone companies rolled over. How much have you done on that front recently? A heck of a lot less than Apple, I'm willing to wager.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#163

Post by otalp »

kypro wrote: post #145
newscracker wrote: post #54

As someone who has appreciated the privacy stance Apple has had and the privacy assisting steps it has taken for a long time (long before iPhone), I believe Apple is coming out to be completely hypocritical and anti-privacy/anti-freedom on this app. I cannot believe that Tim Cook and other senior executives haven't examined this deeper and taken a bold stance to let the app stay! Shame on you, Apple! Even John Gruber…

Apple only cares about privacy because it's a threat to Google and Facebook's business model. They don't care about privacy, they only care about "caring about privacy" when it is good for their business.

Apple banned an app - 13 times that gives you a notification whenever there is publicly available news about a [drone strike](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/538kan/apple-just-banned-...).

The chances that they keep up an app that people use to gain unwanted transparency into any state is exactly 0%

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#164

Post by song »

_pmf_ wrote: post #158
song wrote: post #152

Does this app signal where there's police activity? Yes Could it be used with intent to avoid police? Yes Does it mean that it's only used with criminal intent? I don't believe so. I personally use it to avoid protests and go through my daily life. Should you now remove Safari because it allows you to access data that would potentially help with criminal intent? What about the twitter app, lot's of messages related t…

> Should you now remove Safari because it allows you to access data that would potentially help with criminal intent? Worked for gab.

For a site like Gab, I always wondered if having a massive amount of users posting messages making fun of the alt right movement, painting neo nazies like the idiots they are and criticizing the site user base wouldn't have been a better way than outright censorship.

It would have really tested the supposedly pro free speech stance of that site.

I mean I'm being a bit tongue in cheek there but I'm really not sure if censorship doesn't further radicalize those people by letting them rally around a "Us against Them" mentality. Wouldn't interacting with those people be better?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#165

Post by simonh »

Krasnol wrote: post #124
simonh wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not a matter of ideology, it's a matter of law. They either comply with Chinese law, or they risk their employees being arrested for breaking the law, or they stop doing business in China. I think they would argue that, given that all phones are subject to state surveillance, iPhone users in China are no worse off than if they were using another phone. Also since iPhones are generally a lot more secure th…

Wasn't it "the law" also when they came up with the privacy claim around that terrorist case where the FBI needed access to a device? I mean, in the end it's the same thing as the classic "I didn't do anything wrong, I've been following orders".

I'm finding it difficult to parse what you mean here.

In that case Apple successfully fought the FBI demand, within the law. Had the law required them to render assistance I'm sure they would have done so, otherwise they would have been requiring their employees to break the law.

Under what circumstances do you think it is acceptable for a company to require it's employees to incriminate themselves?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#166

Post by simonh »

m0xte wrote: post #160
simonh wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it is ethical for a company to require it's employees to break the law?

It's not about breaking laws but about not having to break laws by not operating in regimes like China.

Do you not buy any goods made in China?

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#167

Post by justinclift »

aussieguy1234 wrote: post #78

This is a good reason to never buy apple. You never know when you might need to install an app banned by your government. At least on Android you can install apps from unofficial sources.

The Librem 5 seems like it'll be a better choice:

https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#168

Post by m0xte »

simonh wrote: post #162
m0xte wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a fatal flaw to this approach though. The world is regressing into surveillance because quite frankly the mechanisms are already there and it's easy. What happens if someone in the US or the UK start using the justification of "well you did this in China so we'll legislate so you do that here" . Someone has to make a stand and the people running the apparatus purposed to make this possible are morally culpabl…

Apple don't run the apparatus in China, they refused to do so. iCloud services in China are run by a Chinese company. We can't outsource our responsibility as citizens of democracies to a corporation. Apple has done a heck of a lot more than most of us on HN in this fight, by standing up to unreasonable law enforcement requests for access to iPhone data, when the other phone companies rolled over. How much have you d…

So refusing to run it then franchising it out to a less respectable organisation under the same brand is an approach that is morally acceptable?

Let's skip the whataboutism in these threads. That solves nothing. Incidentally I do a lot more than most people do on this matter.

Re: Apple Removes HKmap.live from the App Store

#169

Post by sandworm101 »

kypro wrote: post #145
newscracker wrote: post #54

As someone who has appreciated the privacy stance Apple has had and the privacy assisting steps it has taken for a long time (long before iPhone), I believe Apple is coming out to be completely hypocritical and anti-privacy/anti-freedom on this app. I cannot believe that Tim Cook and other senior executives haven't examined this deeper and taken a bold stance to let the app stay! Shame on you, Apple! Even John Gruber…

Apple only cares about privacy because it's a threat to Google and Facebook's business model. They don't care about privacy, they only care about "caring about privacy" when it is good for their business.

At a more basic level, apple doesnt see people as customers. They have already maxed out thier target market. Expansion now turns on access to new markets: the will of governments. Governments are now the customer. Any app that angers them is for the block.
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