Peter told me he often gets candidate solutions that the sender hasn't even validated.
Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
21–30 of 63 posts
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#22> 3. They don’t understand what it means for something to be mathematically impossible. This one gets a lot of technically competent people. I spent a very unsatisfying 45 minutes vainly trying to explain to an eminent biologist that no, really, some statements really are _undecidable_ -- and no, that doesn't mean that at some future time we'll figure out a new approach that lets us decide them.
There's a flipside of this, where people incorrectly lord "mathematical impossibility" over others as a way to shut down discussion. You see this on the topic of cryptographic backdoors especially. I'm against cryptographic backdoors, but claiming they're not technically possible is a losing position. The interface between plain language and math is messy. I don't think I've ever seen something suggested that was act…
no, it's not. Knowing that this specific program halts or not doesn't address the issue.
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#23Almost none of them thought it was important to understand any prior results about primality testing before submitting a claim for the prize, while a majority didn't seem comfortable with the idea of a mathematical proof or theorem. In general, they didn't have a sense that some properties are always true, some are never true, and some are sometimes true and sometimes not true, and that mathematical reasoning can often definitively establish which of these categories a particular property is in.
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#24> 3. They don’t understand what it means for something to be mathematically impossible. This one gets a lot of technically competent people. I spent a very unsatisfying 45 minutes vainly trying to explain to an eminent biologist that no, really, some statements really are _undecidable_ -- and no, that doesn't mean that at some future time we'll figure out a new approach that lets us decide them.
Reminds me of an infamous VC story I heard years ago: A bunch of engineers tell him that feature X is impossible due to latency, and the latency is capped by the speed of light. He challenges the team by asking them to speculate about options, if they managed to "disrupt" the industry by breaking that speed barrier, and gets mighty upset by these closed-minded engineers who are unwilling to accept any possibility of…
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
An important aspect of this isn't that you cant trisect any particular angle, its that you cant trisect any arbitrary angle, plenty of angles, like 90 degrees, are trivial to trisect.
Yes. The better way to phrase it would be that some angles are impossible to construct, and importantly that includes a trisection of some angles that can in fact be constructed.
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#26This is hilarious.
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#27> 3. They don’t understand what it means for something to be mathematically impossible. This one gets a lot of technically competent people. I spent a very unsatisfying 45 minutes vainly trying to explain to an eminent biologist that no, really, some statements really are _undecidable_ -- and no, that doesn't mean that at some future time we'll figure out a new approach that lets us decide them.
There's a flipside of this, where people incorrectly lord "mathematical impossibility" over others as a way to shut down discussion. You see this on the topic of cryptographic backdoors especially. I'm against cryptographic backdoors, but claiming they're not technically possible is a losing position. The interface between plain language and math is messy. I don't think I've ever seen something suggested that was act…
Cryptographic backdoors are possible (See Clipper and LEAF for previous examples). Cryptographic backdoors that will only ever be used "legitimately" aren't, and legitimacy isn't a mathematical concept.
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#28Super curious---I actually never took trig (complicated story), so I don't understand the trisecting an angle thing at all. What is it that makes measuring the angle and then dividing that measurement by 3 impossible?
For example, you might say: (1) If you have 4 different points P, Q, R, S so that the lines PQ and RS are not parallel, you may "acquire" their point of intersection; (2) If you have 4 different points P, Q, R, S and the circle with center P and radius PQ intersects the line RS then you may "acquire" the point(s) of intersection of the circle and the line; (3) If you have 4 different point P, Q, R, S and the circle with center P and radius PQ intersects the circle with center R and radius RS, you can "acquire" the intersection point(s) of the circles. ("Acquire" a point means roughly that your number system now contains the coordinates of the point.)
Notice that this removes the problem of people doing unintended tricks with or drawing horribly complicated diagrams with physical compasses or straightedges, and makes mathematically precise what is allowed.
The following is probably more than you want to know, even though I'll omit lots of the details. The idea is that circles are defined by quadratic equations, and lines by linear equations. At every step, you're solving (acquring the roots of) simultaneous linear or quadratic equations. Starting with the rational numbers, as you "acquire" new points, you "extend" the rationals to bigger fields "by extensions of degree 1 or 2". Since degrees multiply, at any point, you've "extended" the rationals by a total degree 2^n.
So the result is: Theorem. Any point you construct must (a) lie in an extension of the rationals of degree 2^n; (b) be algebraic, in the sense that its coordinates are roots of rational polynomials.
Now take something like trisecting a 60 degree angle. A third of 60 is 20, and to construct a 20 degree angle you need to construct t = cos 20 degrees. But from trig, t is a root of x^3 - 3 x - 1 (which is irreducible over the rationals), so t has degree 3 --- and 3 is not a power of 2. Hence, a 60 degree angle can't be trisected.
Squaring the circle means given a circle, construct (the side of) a square with the same area. Take the circle to have radius 1, so its area is pi. The square you need would have side pi^(1/2), but pi (and pi^(1/2)) isn't algebraic in the sense noted above. (Lindemann showed pi is transcendental.) So you can't square an arbitrary circle.
Duplicating the cube means given a cube (say with sides of length 1), construct (the side of) a cube whose volume is twice the volume of the original cube (so in this case, the new cube should have volume 2, and its sides should have length 2^(1/3). But 2^(1/3) is a root of the irreducible rational polynomial x^3 -2, so it has degree 3, and again, 3 is not a power of 2.
What's remarkable about this is that, once you prove the theorem (which isn't that hard, just a little fussy), you can dispose of those three old contruction problems so easily.
(Anyone who wants more details - I've left out a lot - can consult any book on Galois theory. Also, Nathan Jacobson's "Basic Algebra I" covers this [https://store.doverpublications.com/0486471896.html] --- it's a classic of abstract algebra which I like a lot, though a little old-fashioned.)
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#29Super curious---I actually never took trig (complicated story), so I don't understand the trisecting an angle thing at all. What is it that makes measuring the angle and then dividing that measurement by 3 impossible?
Re: Beware of Cranks: Misguided attempts to solve impossible mathematical problems
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're writing business logic in a modern programming language your code can almost certainly be proven to halt. Very few people are running around coding up the Collatz conjecture or feeding programs as input to themselves.
It's clearly not true in any practical way. because most programs these days are huge beasts depending on stacks of millions of lines of code, so little can be conclusively proven about those. It's also wrong in theoretical sense, because what you're talking about is not "halting problem" at all.
But, actually, the most straightforward way to show that most 'everyday' programs terminate is -- assuming functionality of the language runtime as stated -- that they typically consist of non-recursive functions or functions on structurally smaller inputs. It would be obnoxious, but not difficult to show that a program like 'grep' terminates, assuming functionality of the operating system and hardware on which its running. This is actually fairly straightforwards, and many many functional languages with a focus on correctness have totality checking builtin. For example, Idris and Agda.
Of course, if you're going to ask to prove both functionality of the operating system (like Linux + glibc) or the processor itself, then that could indeed be trickier. But, if you limit your stack, it's certainly possible. The truth is that most computing does not consist of solving Turing complete problems.