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NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

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Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#71

Post by clairity »

vnchr wrote: post #30
clairity wrote: post #19

the compare and contrast of this with the nfl and colin kaepernick is interesting. here, a general manager of a team (not a player) showed support for free speech (the protests) and democratic values over tyranny, and the league rallied (measured) support for him. many americans then criticized the nba for not going far enough, because greed. with the nfl, a player protests minority persecution by the police (an expr…

Interesting interpretation of events. Most accounts of the NBA controversy that I've heard suggest the apology to China made by the Houston Rockets's James Harden[1] in response is what has drawn criticism. And the GM has been pressured into making an apology [2]. That was after the Houston Rockets immediately distanced themselves from the statement [3]. The criticism I've heard has been of the subservient apologies,…

i'm not following it closely enough to pinpoint where most of the criticism is being directed, but quite a bit seems to be directed at the nba and the rockets. the nba and the rockets are clearly trying to walk a tightrope between mollifying the CCP without capitulating to it (by outright punishing daryl morey).

kaepernick's ranking as a quarterback is debatable but a quorum of knowledgeable people (i.e., not me) seemed to view him as a somewhere in the middle of the pack of starting quarterbacks.

in any case, another interesting element of the comparison is that nba players/employees have more collective power than their nfl counterparts. individual players, who feel loyalty to a range of interests other than profit, are willing to take stands that an unempathetic corporate entity just won't.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#72

Post by yourbandsucks »

baumy wrote: post #69
yourbandsucks wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad Silver took his time and got it right. The response was perfect -- de-escalating, respectful, yet firmly refusing to get into policing their employees, as you say. The NBA shouldn't be the vanguard of American foreign policy.

My ideal statement would have gone something like this: "I (Adam Silver) support the principles of democracy and human rights, and stand with the people of Hong Kong in trying to secure those for themselves. The rest of the NBA stands with them as well. We apologize for responding to this incident incorrectly initially, we were deeply worried about losing the Chinese audience for many reasons. Our revenue and growth…

Yeah, I'd call that type of statement being the vanguard, considering the US government is very much not getting involved in the HK matter.

Silver doesn't even have the right to speak for all NBA employees on the matter, which he wisely recognized. He should definitely not be getting out ahead of the State Dept.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#73

Post by par4crsei »

vnchr wrote: post #38
par4crsei wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re talking about celebrities who are treated differently. How’s that population of effectively “disappeared” minorities into prison for pot possession and migrants in cages make it look relative to China and its behavior of kidnapping people. There are oodles of folks held in America without charges every year. Oh they got a trial here sure. One with a predetermined outcome codified into law years ago. America ha…

Sure. But that's not because of freedom of speech. And I think this is a discussion related to freedom of speech rather than the more subjective and infinitely broad, "Which is better: China or America?" I can safely criticize my country and its officials because I am not a Chinese citizen.

Right, casually downvote literal behaviors of our government as if they’re being presented out of context. Cherry pick to support ones argument by omission.

For a forum of “disrupters” it likes to remain politically milquetoast.

I guess when you’re looking to simply disrupt how much money others have in their account, disrupting the political status quo that enables the gambling risks the game.

So what about the things I brought up. Got disruption to do.

Guess I’ll have to be the “politically unreasonable man” alone.

Nothing exposes weakness like being a single minded doofus. Like Adam Smith warned, extreme division of labor will make for a mighty brain dead and easily manipulated public. Stick to your lane.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#74

Post by baumy »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #72
baumy wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My ideal statement would have gone something like this: "I (Adam Silver) support the principles of democracy and human rights, and stand with the people of Hong Kong in trying to secure those for themselves. The rest of the NBA stands with them as well. We apologize for responding to this incident incorrectly initially, we were deeply worried about losing the Chinese audience for many reasons. Our revenue and growth…

Yeah, I'd call that type of statement being the vanguard, considering the US government is very much not getting involved in the HK matter. Silver doesn't even have the right to speak for all NBA employees on the matter, which he wisely recognized. He should definitely not be getting out ahead of the State Dept.

Agree to disagree. To me there's nothing more American than citizens/organizations coming out in support of what they believe in, and forcing their representatives to either advocate on their behalf for those beliefs, or face the consequences come the next election. And of course he doesn't have the right to speak personally for all individual NBA employees, but he absolutely has the right to speak on behalf of the NBA itself and the resources it controls. He's actually the only person who does have the authority to do that, it's his job. And if any employees disagree with the direction the organization goes and the principles it chooses to stand for, they are free to seek employment elsewhere.

> [Silver] should definitely not be getting out ahead of the State Dept.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding you, but I can't find another way to read this other than that you think the NBA shouldn't take a stance because the US federal government hasn't taken one. This idea is extraordinarily dangerous in my opinion, and I am vehemently opposed to it.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#75

Post by yourbandsucks »

baumy wrote: post #74
yourbandsucks wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'd call that type of statement being the vanguard, considering the US government is very much not getting involved in the HK matter. Silver doesn't even have the right to speak for all NBA employees on the matter, which he wisely recognized. He should definitely not be getting out ahead of the State Dept.

Agree to disagree. To me there's nothing more American than citizens/organizations coming out in support of what they believe in, and forcing their representatives to either advocate on their behalf for those beliefs, or face the consequences come the next election. And of course he doesn't have the right to speak personally for all individual NBA employees, but he absolutely has the right to speak on behalf of the N…

I think the NBA shouldn't take a stance because shared love of basketball shouldn't be an international battleground. Even if you're taking a purely American POV, there's a reason we don't weaponize the Peace corps.

From a more global viewpoint.. there are reasons why a lot of Chinese get mad at the idea of westerners expressing an opinion over Hong Kong's system of rule. And it's not because they're brainwashed. Silver probably listened to their perspective, based on his wording.

One could be forgiven for not knowing such a perspective exists, given the HN threads on the matter.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#76

Post by vnchr »

par4crsei wrote: post #54
vnchr wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But that's not because of freedom of speech. And I think this is a discussion related to freedom of speech rather than the more subjective and infinitely broad, "Which is better: China or America?" I can safely criticize my country and its officials because I am not a Chinese citizen.

Try protesting Trump in front of the White House. Odds are you won’t even risk seeing how free your speech is. That’s the difference in America: most wont bother cause for most it’s fine. A lot of Chinese as a percentage of the population can say the same. I think fewer Americans are inclined to try and test it, more so than it being true. Look at the pipeline situation, campus protests, etc of the last five years. P…

Lots of people protest Trump at the White House. Like, a lot. It’s cool.

People call him out on Twitter constantly. No repercussions.

Lots of organized protests, most of them complaining about him. No consequences for the protesting.

Seriously, I can mail a letter telling my President that I think he’s shit, and there are no consequences. Freedom. Now, if I say something even vaguely threatening in that letter, the Secret Service will pay me a visit. And I’d feel uncomfortable. But that’s appropriate threat assessment. We don’t arrest our people for criticizing leaders. That’s a protected right.

I’ll make a bet: you and I will both send the same insulting, critical letters to our respective national leaders, and I bet that I will suffer no consequences provided that the content is of a non-threatening nature whereas you may not be so lucky.

In that respect, I have the opportunity to contribute to the public discourse that is necessary for my nation to progress. I can openly disagree with my leaders, and that is the very means for change in both who will lead and where we will go.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#77

Post by pitt1980 »

baumy wrote: post #51
sgoraya wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Morey is not even an especially notable NBA figure, Twitter doesn't even work in China, it would have been easy to block news of this in China. NBA fan, who will NOT be renewing league pass, checking in. Morey is considered one of the top NBA GM's of one of the top teams (Rockets) that have a strong Sino-centric fan base because of former Rocket great, Yao Ming. Yao was the first Chinese superstar in the NBA. The R…

Another longtime NBA fan here, just backing up what you're saying about Morey. Especially in regards to the NBA in China, he's a fairly significant figure, more so than the original comment implies. On a different note - I was in the same boat as you and actually wrote an email to the league pass support address (did not get a reply yet) telling them that I had been a customer for years and would not be renewing this…

On Morey, sure, basketball fans know who he is, and he’s a respected guy, but relative to say LeBron or Harden, in a list of Q scores, he’s certainly behind at least hundreds of other NBA personalities,

And this was a 2 line tweet,

Which again is blocked in China.

I maintain that had the Chinese government just ignored this, or stuck it behind the Great Firewall,

This would be a complete non-story.

Now millions of Chinese citizens are wondering why exactly they can watch the NBA games they enjoy (even if they don’t agree with Morey at all).

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#78

Post by vnchr »

taobility wrote: post #60
vnchr wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting interpretation of events. Most accounts of the NBA controversy that I've heard suggest the apology to China made by the Houston Rockets's James Harden[1] in response is what has drawn criticism. And the GM has been pressured into making an apology [2]. That was after the Houston Rockets immediately distanced themselves from the statement [3]. The criticism I've heard has been of the subservient apologies,…

Kaepernick is safe because he is a celebrity, did you read the news about some other nobody Americans?

I’m a nobody American. I can demonstrate my freedom, if you’d like.

I, being of sound mind, declare that my President is shit. And he’s wrong about things. And his hair is ridiculous.

No consequences. That’s allowed. My real identity is adequately tied to this account, and I fear no repercussions for criticizing my government leaders.

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#79

Post by baumy »

yourbandsucks wrote: post #75
baumy wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree to disagree. To me there's nothing more American than citizens/organizations coming out in support of what they believe in, and forcing their representatives to either advocate on their behalf for those beliefs, or face the consequences come the next election. And of course he doesn't have the right to speak personally for all individual NBA employees, but he absolutely has the right to speak on behalf of the N…

I think the NBA shouldn't take a stance because shared love of basketball shouldn't be an international battleground. Even if you're taking a purely American POV, there's a reason we don't weaponize the Peace corps. From a more global viewpoint.. there are reasons why a lot of Chinese get mad at the idea of westerners expressing an opinion over Hong Kong's system of rule. And it's not because they're brainwashed. Sil…

This will be my last reply since it's quite clear we're at an impasse, but I assure you I have been exposed to many more perspectives than just HN, and frankly am offended that you would assume otherwise. I think it reflects poorly on the strength of your argument if you have to resort to "you disagree with me, you must not be as well informed as I am". Particularly when you proceed to not clarify in any way which perspectives you're referring to, it is a sign of arguing in bad faith.

Your comment reads to me as a very thinly veiled "shut up and dribble" [1]. Not quite identical, mostly due to the lack of racist undertones, but the idea is the same. If the NBA standing in support of democracy and human rights creates an "international battleground", the blame for that lies exclusively and totally with China, full stop. These are things worth going to battle over, whether within the context of the NBA, state department negotiations, or anything in between. Your point about weaponizing the peace corps is a complete non sequitur.

I understand, I think as well as any western person can, why the Chinese get upset about this. I'm familiar with their history of issues with territorial sovereignty particularly in the 19th and early-to-mid 20th centuries [2]. I simply completely disagree that said reaction is justified. People advocating for the right to govern themselves to some extent or another, particularly when the alternative is falling under the jurisdiction of an authoritarian regime, is justified precisely 100% of the time, and anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong, or yes, brainwashed. Silver may have listened to other perspectives, but I'll eat my hat if he cared at all about them, as opposed to caring about the NBA's bottom line.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/02/19/587097707...

[2] for perspective on this issue from someone sympathetic to the CCP https://www.facebook.com/joe.tsai.3781/posts/265337893139152...

Re: NBA Events in China Disrupted over Hong Kong Tweet

#80

Post by yourbandsucks »

baumy wrote: post #79
yourbandsucks wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the NBA shouldn't take a stance because shared love of basketball shouldn't be an international battleground. Even if you're taking a purely American POV, there's a reason we don't weaponize the Peace corps. From a more global viewpoint.. there are reasons why a lot of Chinese get mad at the idea of westerners expressing an opinion over Hong Kong's system of rule. And it's not because they're brainwashed. Sil…

This will be my last reply since it's quite clear we're at an impasse, but I assure you I have been exposed to many more perspectives than just HN, and frankly am offended that you would assume otherwise. I think it reflects poorly on the strength of your argument if you have to resort to "you disagree with me, you must not be as well informed as I am". Particularly when you proceed to not clarify in any way which pe…

Ok. Cheers.

For the record, I wasn't assuming anything about your exposure to various ideas. Just didn't want to belabor the points. I was snarking the one-sidedness of the board a little bit.

If you wanted to hear what I was thinking:

1) Installing western-friendly government in HK achieves full naval encirclement of China (SK, JP, Phillipines, Taiwan, HK).

2) As you say, there's the history of colonialism, which gets compounded by the importance of 1).

3) We consistently ignore these things from our allies and then get all moralizing when it's strategically advantageous for us. 12 hours ago we let Erdogan invade kurdish syria, and that's just today. I could list another dozen countries/disasters that we're enabling right now.

4) Almost every time we have gotten involved in 'liberating' countries because our values are so great, it's not only had ulterior motivations but it's also been an absolute humanitarian disaster. We did this on their borders twice in the latter 20th century.

When you add all of that up, and mix in the post-colonial resentment.. I can see a reaction of "America in particular can kindly shut up about it". It's not that they can't comprehend democracy, it's that they specifically don't want any American involvement whatsoever.

I'm not saying you have to agree with them -- feel free to join a divestment movement or something -- but they do have their reasons, the issue isn't completely one-sided.

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