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China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

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Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#161

Post by moggie2 »

goatsi wrote: post #134
kwizzt wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One man? If you are just trying to sound dramatic, sure. However, I'd urge that you go and actually read more about how CCP works and the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media. The reaction to NBA and Hong Kong is not merely the government's manipulation, tho I'm sure there are some being done. When people see the news and make a judgement, it's often times the judgement the media…

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media. That isn't the actual reaction of Chinese people, that's the reaction that the Chinese social media companies permit to be displayed. Do you think that a post supporting the Hong Kong protesters would be permitted by the censors?

The opinions in HK (which is not being censored) is widely divided also. It is not about the WHAT that they're asking, it is about HOW. If they are protesting peacefully, nobody would object - even the police. But then again, youthful protester would then claim that the only way that the government only listens when they use violence. The truth is, their voices were heard, it was just couldn't be agreed upon on. The younger generation's perspective in HK is like this - If I don't get what I ask for, you are not listening. Since you are not listening, I would do whatever it takes to make you listen to me, including breaking the law (destroying properties, set up fire in subway, beat up, lock up, surround or threaten people with different opinions). The enforcement is there to oppress me because they attempt to stop me from letting my voice be heard through breaking the law. Since they oppress me, I need to fight them back by throwing bricks, metals, slingshot, petrol bomb to them. Since they oppress me, their family deserve to die and their children deserved to be bullied at school.

THAT is how they think and what they are doing currently. Certainly not all of the protesters are like that, but none of the protesters are willing to tell them that these radical protesters doing / thinking is wrong.

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#162

Post by aianus »

jldugger wrote: post #109
bluGill wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just recognizing HK and Taiwan as separate countries from China would be big.

Recognizing HK as independent would be a huge step, and one even the UK didn't take.

The UK wanted to give HK free elections and China threatened to invade if they did.

https://www.scmp.com/article/48108/thatcher-reveals-dengs-th...

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#163

Post by Yetanfou »

bashinator wrote: post #135
helpPeople wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could never trust Apple given their track record. Plus, their hardware is overpriced for what you get. I genuinely have a hard time understanding the appeal. It seems to have the Gucci brand name, maybe integrations but I don't feel this is lacking on Android, and maybe privacy but I don't trust Apple for privacy.

But you do trust Google for privacy?

Hell no, Google is a data vacuum the likes of which has not been seen since Mega Maid [1].

Yet... I still use Android-based devices. They happen to be Google-free, i.e. no Google Services nor any Google apps, no Chrome or Chromium, no Google search engine. Instead of those Google apps I use things like ~Osmand (maps), Nextcloud (storage and some applications), etc. Firefox/Fennec and Privacy Browser for web-related things. A self-hosted Searx instance for searching. Peertube for video, Airsonic for audio, Libreoffice Online (integrated into Nextcloud) for that type of stuff, eJabberd for chat, now experimenting with Pixelfed for photo sharing, self-hosted mail/web/etc. I've been doing something like this for as long as I've been using Android, i.e. about 9 years.

[1] https://spaceballs.fandom.com/wiki/Mega_Maid

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#164

Post by perennate »

mercutio2 wrote: post #138
ootan wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not weird. Apple reversed their decision and allowed the app on the App Store. Now they are facing veiled threats from Chinese state media for doing the right thing.

There was no reversal. It was new, and had never been approved. It got through the approval process recently.

According to [1]: The app, known as HKmap.live, is a mobile version of a website that helps users avoid potentially dangerous areas, according to the developer, who uses the alias Kuma to remain anonymous. It was rejected from Apple’s App Store because it "facilitates, enables, and encourages an activity that is not legal," Apple told the developer, according to a copy of the rejection notice seen by Bloomberg News. "Specifically, the app allowed users to evade law enforcement," Apple wrote.

Bloomberg claims they saw the initial rejection notice, which was later reversed.

[1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-03/apple-rev...

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#165

Post by kelnos »

kwizzt wrote: post #133
calcifer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media Why do you think those people react that way? Nobody is born with an opinion. What politics they were exposed to growing up? What did the schools teach them? What behaviour did the government punish, what did it allow? Which information sources where they given access to? Are the "actual Chinese people" who disagree with the party allowed…

Like you said, nobody is born with an opinion. Same questions you asked above can be asked of Americans. Democracy != Good and Communism != Bad Things aren't as black and white as people make it out to be. Now, I'll tell you I'm Chinese, but I've been in the US for almost ten years now. I've seen perspectives from both sides and the truth is far from what western media tells you. The unfortunate problem is the langua…

You're of course entitled to your opinion on the HK protests, but I don't think that's what people are looking for. You're just one random person on the internet. What I think we're interested in is figuring out what public sentiment actually is, and what's causing it.

For example, is it that most Chinese people are genuinely, organically outraged? Or is it a small, vocal minority that is being amplified by state media? Or is it mainly groups like the 50 Cent Army manipulating public opinion? It's hard to say, and I don't think the Western media is equipped to answer that question.

As an example, there are reports that Chinese media outlets are dishonestly painting the HK protestors as largely a violent group that (among other things) are separatists. If people in China hear that, and believe that, I'd say outrage is completely understandable... but it's based on a false premise. But I don't -- and can't -- know what's actually happening over there, so it's just one explanation among many possibilities. How do we, as foreigners, get to the heart of the matter? Is it even possible?

To your note about the language barrier: I think about that a lot. I speak/understand a very tiny amount of Chinese, and can read basically none (something I'd like to improve at soon). I was watching a recording of a clip of a Chinese news broadcast, and of course there was a translator speaking over it in English. How do I know the English translation was actually what was said? Even if the translators were acting in good faith, how do I know that the translation accurately expresses the intent of the speaker? I don't, and recognize that there are limits to how much I can understand what's going on.

I think, also, for context, a lot of non-Chinese people naturally distrust China's government. Personally, I have trouble believing anything at face value that comes out of an authoritarian government, or the media apparatus that it controls. The US has many, many faults, but at least I can believe with reasonable certainty that the media outlets are saying things (whether right or wrong) because they want to say them, not because the government is forcing them to say things.

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#166

Post by Yetanfou »

vbezhenar wrote: post #152
nanoservices wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have to trust someone. Both Google & Apple are in the same boat in that respect. My main reason to switch to Apple is the consistency. I am getting sick and tired of Google killing app after app I rely on only to release a new one with half the features. At this point I'm willing to shell out the extra money even though I agree that Apple hardware is borderline rip off levels of pricing.

Google is well known to monetize your data, it's their primary revenue after all. Apple sells hardware, while they could monetize your data, they are actively presenting themselves as a privacy company. So Apple looks better than Google in that regard. Though I have no idea why would anyone trying to hide from Google. You can't really. Google spies on you everywhere, from every website. They already have all data and…

All it takes to keep Google from spying (apart from not using any of its products directly and not having a Google account) is a well-targeted block list on your router and in your ad blocker. They'll probably still be able to glean some data about you but it will be sparse and more or less useless for ad targeting - or maybe it is useful in that it tells them that 'you' don't like nor look at ads?

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#167

Post by perennate »

kwizzt wrote: post #133
calcifer wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media Why do you think those people react that way? Nobody is born with an opinion. What politics they were exposed to growing up? What did the schools teach them? What behaviour did the government punish, what did it allow? Which information sources where they given access to? Are the "actual Chinese people" who disagree with the party allowed…

Like you said, nobody is born with an opinion. Same questions you asked above can be asked of Americans. Democracy != Good and Communism != Bad Things aren't as black and white as people make it out to be. Now, I'll tell you I'm Chinese, but I've been in the US for almost ten years now. I've seen perspectives from both sides and the truth is far from what western media tells you. The unfortunate problem is the langua…

I'm sure a majority of Chinese citizens support the PRC's Holocaust-scale campaign of genocide against the Uighur people in Xinjiang, but that doesn't make it okay to imprison hundreds of thousands of people in concentration camps without trial (and there are now reports of extreme torture, killings, cremation of bodies to cover it up, etc.).

The U.S. and Germany (and many other countries) have learned from horrific experiences (e.g. internment of Japanese Americans) and I think that has yielded greater freedoms that make it less likely that these tragic and disgusting actions will be repeated in the future. Hopefully when China learns the same lesson, it won't be too late.

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#168

Post by mercutio2 »

perennate wrote: post #164
mercutio2 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no reversal. It was new, and had never been approved. It got through the approval process recently.

According to [1]: The app, known as HKmap.live, is a mobile version of a website that helps users avoid potentially dangerous areas, according to the developer, who uses the alias Kuma to remain anonymous. It was rejected from Apple’s App Store because it "facilitates, enables, and encourages an activity that is not legal," Apple told the developer, according to a copy of the rejection notice seen by Bloomberg News.…

I hadn’t seen that reporting.

What I meant was that it had never been approved, so the state never switched.

But you’re right, the reporting was that it was initially rejected, so I was wrong.

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#169

Post by tartoran »

moggie2 wrote: post #161
goatsi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media. That isn't the actual reaction of Chinese people, that's the reaction that the Chinese social media companies permit to be displayed. Do you think that a post supporting the Hong Kong protesters would be permitted by the censors?

The opinions in HK (which is not being censored) is widely divided also. It is not about the WHAT that they're asking, it is about HOW. If they are protesting peacefully, nobody would object - even the police. But then again, youthful protester would then claim that the only way that the government only listens when they use violence. The truth is, their voices were heard, it was just couldn't be agreed upon on. The…

That too can be manipulated. Peaceful protesters could be infiltrated with violence quite easily and the message gets automatically diluted into something like.. the protesters want violence, the protesters are bad

Re: China attacks Apple for allowing Hong Kong crowdsourced police activity app

#170

Post by goatsi »

taobility wrote: post #160
goatsi wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the actual reaction of Chinese people on Weibo and other Chinese social media. That isn't the actual reaction of Chinese people, that's the reaction that the Chinese social media companies permit to be displayed. Do you think that a post supporting the Hong Kong protesters would be permitted by the censors?

But the tweets and posts to support HK polices on Twitter/Facebook were deleted, how would you explain that?

Do you mean the recent tweet supporting the HK protesters? We know why that was deleted, because the Chinese government threatened the NBA. The NBA quickly caved, but it seems to have been too late: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/08/china-state-tv-suspends-nba-...
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