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U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#301

Post by yorwba »

greatpatton wrote: post #299
yorwba wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Machine learning is a wide field. Could you give some examples of research you've done based on papers that came out of Alibaba, Tencent, etc.? I'm curious.

of course ML is a wide field but for instance these paper were quite relevant to our work: * https://arxiv.org/pdf/1802.03903.pdf * https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8710885 but they are numerous, and the work done at Tsinghua University is very interesting By the way down voting a comment based on facts is rather silly...

Thanks for the links.

By the way, the site guidelines exhort us to

Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#303

Post by yorwba »

rjf72 wrote: post #298
peter303 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doubt it. China has yet to invent a new class of technology not copied/stolen from Europe or US. There are very good ar perfecting technologies developed elsewhere.

1957 is an interesting year. In the United States that's the year that Control Data Corporation was formed in the US. Seymour Cray, the namesake of cray supercomputers, would join it a year later and would go on towards the rapid process of turning what were glorified room-sized calculators into the computers that we now take for granted and that would rapidly take over all forms of technological development. In Chin…

> One of the big differences is that China was a unified and stable empire.

Unified, yes; nominally, for short stretches of time. Stable, no; there was always war somewhere over land and power.

Look at the animation of territorial changes at the top of [1] and at the quick succession of dynasties. Consider that each time territory was conquered or a new dynasty rose to power, this was accomplished by war; and there were many more rebellions that were defeated by the ruling dynasty and didn't change much.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynasties_in_Chinese_history

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#304

Post by madcapmac »

buildzr wrote: post #159

Wow, interesting to see Hikvision on this list, I own several of their cameras (and keep them isolated on a separate VLAN), but once you know them, you see them everywhere, they have a huge hold in the video surveillance market. Wonder if their main Chinese competitor, Dahua will pick up their market share in the US or if there's a more local competitor. Huawei's HiSilicon fab makes purpose built ICs for these things…

I procure cameras for some systems development we are doing for the DoD. Hikvision and Dahua are both specifically banned by law. The number of American companies simply rebranding banned cameras and stamping "Manufactured in America" on them was a bit of a shock.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#305

Post by Consultant32452 »

majia wrote: post #269
Consultant32452 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet in August we seized a Chinese shipment of fentanyl large enough to kill an entire state's worth of people. When China actually does something beyond lip service, then I'll believe you. Let's not forget, every major industry in China is controlled by the party. Whether it was a controlled substance in China is irrelevant to whether or not they're literally killing us by the tens of thousands a year. https://ww…

What seized were not fentanyl, but some chemicals could be used in the fentanyl manufacturing process, as well as many other legitimate use. If you want to stop fentanyl, the best thing to do is to figure out what chemicals are used exclusively in fentayl production and build an international coalition to ban those. Unfortunately many people just don't appreciate this kind of sophistication and prefer an easier blame…

I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the Chinese people are stupid defense. I guess they have no idea who their customers are or what their products are being used for.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#306

Post by BiasRegularizer »

govg wrote: post #297
BiasRegularizer wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not completely true. China lead in terms of AI startup funding, but due to the huge shortage of talents, a good number of startups don't hold much water. The top Chinese talents (e.g. Kaming He, Fei Fei Li etc) all chose to move to the US. AFAIK, there are no Chinese institutions that employ elite foreign AI researchers. The US universities and companies still lead with a large margin in terms of high impact…

You're wrong with the "large margin" terms. A lot of Chinese universities have stepped up in the recent past. You can take a look here : http://csrankings.org/#/fromyear/2017/toyear/2019/index?ai&v... 3 of the top 10 (all in the top 5 even) are Chinese in origin. This is a list of publications at the top venues in AI / ML for the past two years. If you extend it to past 5 years, you get a slightly better picture, but…

The keyword is "high impact". The link you provided is only ranked by publication count, it doesn't consider the impact factor of journal/conferences. If you look at stats from ICML this year[0], the only Chinese institution TsingHua is ranked #13 in the top #20 list.

Take a look at recent major advances in deep learning: information bottle neck, mask-rcnn, transformer, normalizing flow, all originated from US/Canadian/EU institutions. Chinese academia has very serious systematic issues that discourages innovation and encourages quantity over quality.

https://medium.com/@dcharrezt/icml-2019-stats-4ba18fbc6543

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#307

Post by onepointsixC »

madcapmac wrote: post #304
buildzr wrote: post #159

Wow, interesting to see Hikvision on this list, I own several of their cameras (and keep them isolated on a separate VLAN), but once you know them, you see them everywhere, they have a huge hold in the video surveillance market. Wonder if their main Chinese competitor, Dahua will pick up their market share in the US or if there's a more local competitor. Huawei's HiSilicon fab makes purpose built ICs for these things…

I procure cameras for some systems development we are doing for the DoD. Hikvision and Dahua are both specifically banned by law. The number of American companies simply rebranding banned cameras and stamping "Manufactured in America" on them was a bit of a shock.

Any non Chinese manufacturers you can recommend?

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#308

Post by SheepleUSA »

hnick wrote: post #252
lgvln wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their no first use policy perhaps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use#China

That seems to be a useful policy when you're on your way to being a world power. It also seems to be the kind of policy that will be broken when convenient after becoming a world power.

...in a world where no one else has nukes.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#310

Post by ryanmercer »

alasdair_ wrote: post #283
x86_64Ubuntu wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not yet. But 20 years ago, we weren't having this conversation of China even being seen as a threat. Back in the day, China was simply and exotic communist land that the West exploited for cheap manufacturing. Now it's appearing to be going down the path of militarily deterring the US and competing in the tech field.

>Not yet. But 20 years ago, we weren't having this conversation of China even being seen as a threat. Twenty years ago, Japan was the "threat" and the zeitgeist was full of tropes of Japanese technology taking over the world.

Farther back than that even, go watch movies like Gung Ho from 1986 with Michael Keaton which did a good job at vilifying Japanese companies/Japan.

>The local auto plant in fictional Hadleyville, Pennsylvania, which supplied most of the town's jobs, has been closed for nine months. The former foreman Hunt Stevenson goes to Tokyo to try to convince the Assan Motors Corporation to reopen the plant. The Japanese company agrees and, upon their arrival in the U.S., they take advantage of the desperate work force to institute many changes. The workers are not permitted a union, are paid lower wages, are moved around within the factory so that each worker learns every job, and are held to seemingly impossible standards of efficiency and quality. Adding to the strain in the relationship, the Americans find humor in the demand that they do calisthenics as a group each morning and that the Japanese executives eat their lunches with chopsticks and bathe together in the river near the factory. The workers also display a poor work ethic and lackadaisical attitude toward quality control.

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