Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 361 posts

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#271

Post by daniel_iversen »

wideasleep1 wrote: post #211
sumanthvepa wrote: post #199

I guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with…

"However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start to falter and eventually erode away. " Are you assuming the U.S. will sit stagnant during these 15-20 years? If China is 15-20 years behind currently, I doubt they will ever be at parity. Their best…

Apparently China is already leading the world as far as AI goes (I first saw this in Mary Meeker’s internet report this year I think it was and she usually links to the research in her slides). I read somewhere that Chinese scientists found it easier to get Chinese government funding for bold and ambitious research (and I imagine they’d also have other “advantages” given how the country is governed). So I wouldn’t be surprised if China would overtake the US in a whole bunch of technical sectors.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#273

Post by gdy »

luckydata wrote: post #140
saltking112 wrote: post #3

One thing that I really like about the Trump administration is that finally the WH has decided to act against the systemic threat posed by China. Can someone who is well versed in politics shed some light on if this is a trump specific phenonemon or had there been a sea change and the dems are now on board too ?

You will not find a person that despises current POTUS more than me, but I'm also very positive about the fact that China is finally being identified as a real and present threat. Unfortunately current POTUS is doing his very best to implement ineffective measures, it would have hurt China a LOT more to enter into TPP (I know, horrible treaty otherwise) than the stupid tariffs that were imposed. At the end of the day…

"we say that our values (as imperfect in their application as they might be) are worth more than money"

The US keeps selling weapons to the Saudi Arabia that uses them to wage a war of aggression in Yemen, that has brazenly murdered a journalist working for an American newspaper, that executes opposition figures based on fake charges of terrorism, that treats women and gays as inferior.

What sort of values are you talking about?

It's not an 'imperfect application' of the values that American propaganda attributes to America, it's exactly the opposite of them.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#274

Post by Teever »

thawaway1837 wrote: post #249
wideasleep1 wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presently, I'd consider The Verge to be mainstream, but Nilay was on point with his skepticism: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/23/18637213/5g-race-us-leade... I think one could produce articles supporting either view quite easily, which them becomes a task of separating the agendas of its authors.

I’m pretty sure the poster you replied to was talking not about deployment of 5G but the fact that Huawei is supposed to be far ahead of its non Chinese peers when it comes to 5G tech. That’s basically why the US has to ban the supply of tech to them, because otherwise nearly every 5G deployment would be Huawei.

Is that the case or is it that the Chinese government is subsidizing the 5g products that Huawei makes so that western countries will purchasing them?

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#275

Post by NicoJuicy »

devoply wrote: post #218
wideasleep1 wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start to falter and eventually erode away. " Are you assuming the U.S. will sit stagnant during these 15-20 years? If China is 15-20 years behind currently, I doubt they will ever be at parity. Their best…

US was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up. Heck they even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major success that was ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent... ) . These moves are there to slow it down. But China can make other moves like moving tech knowledge from one company to others and play all sorts of games. Fact is knowledge despite what American…

China did not help AMD.

AMD partnered with a Chinese partner and produced /knowledge transfered an older chipstack.

Ps. Everyone can manufacture, so not sure what your mean with edge. There are a lot centralized/easy to be found in China, that's true.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#276

Post by quotz »

dragontamer wrote: post #201
quotz wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youre thinking in the short-term. Of course there are going to be short term economic losses for the US when Trump announced the bans and the tariffs. But its only short term until the west figures out how to defeat the communists. In the long term, theres gain, not just in the economy of western countries, but most importantly gain in human rights, human dignity, and most of all, liberty! China's oligarchs would get…

> But its only short term until the west figures out how to defeat the communists. The Berlin wall fell nearly 30 years ago and the USSR has collapsed shortly thereafter. China's method of governance isn't anything like the communists. They're actually building advanced economies, as the builder of iPhones and lots of other equipment. China is authoritarian, and probably best described as "legalist" (medieval Chinese…

Building advanced economies sure, I agree with that. Building a better society? I doubt that. Theyre an Orwellian state because they know that without the propaganda and massive human rights intrusions, their communist party would crumble instantly. If the people actually believed in their own leaders, the CCP wouldnt have to use all that propaganda and censoring to further their cause.

Theyre an advanced economy yeah I agree with that. However, their markets are not open to foreign companies at all. Not a single western company can compete in China because of the tech theft and spying, and most of all because all the big companies are not private at all, theyre just communist institutions that are disguised as "private companies". If any western person uses an app like WeChat they would be so weirded out by the UI. That is because companies like Facebook and Google evolved that big organically, while companies like WeChat or Weibo or whatever evolved unorganically, their users are forced to use those apps.

And on top of that all, theres just no doubt whether theres tech theft. Most of the big companies in China are that big due to the fact that they blatantly just stole the tech and theyre not even trying to hide it. Theres countless of instances of this occurring, and its very surprising to me that the West just woke up.

Look at Hong Kong. Because of the West, HK has had a taste of what freedom looks like, and they would fight a lot to get back their liberty!

Fraternité, Égalité, Liberté!!!!!!!!! You can only compete with bullies if you are a bully yourself. With fire with fire!

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#277

Post by jdnenej »

wideasleep1 wrote: post #211
sumanthvepa wrote: post #199

I guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with…

"However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with the US particularly on semiconductor design and fabrication. Once that happens, the dominance of the US tech stack will start to falter and eventually erode away. " Are you assuming the U.S. will sit stagnant during these 15-20 years? If China is 15-20 years behind currently, I doubt they will ever be at parity. Their best…

The lack of IP law in china will allow them to progress much much faster.

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#278

Post by quotz »

sumanthvepa wrote: post #199

I guess I am a somewhat neutral bystander here. I'm from India and the way I see it, these sorts of actions, will simply force China and Chinese companies to develop alternatives to US products. For the short to medium term these blacklists will hurt Chinese companies severely, perhaps even put some of them out of business. However, in the long term 15-20 years, I would imagine, China would have fully caught up with…

The US has been leading the world in tech, however, not leading the world in how to defend that tech. Chinese hacking and stealing of tech is vastly more powerful right now. We need to put an end to this

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#279

Post by missosoup »

greatpatton wrote: post #235
wideasleep1 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"US was already shown to be behind in 5g, China is already caught up." So the mainstream media and politicians would have us believe. "Heck they even helped AMD catch up to Intel, and see what sort of major success that was ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD%E2%80%93Chinese_joint_vent... . ) " All I see here is an agreement for AMD to transfer technology to China, for x86 chips destined for chinese-only server marke…

I don't know but from a science point of view all our last research are based on paper coming from people at China companies (Alibaba, Tencent), that currently have the edge in our specific domain (machine learning). So yes in domains that mainly require your brain they have caught up if not ahead.

Alibaba has an edge in machine learning? The CEO of Alibaba is palpably clueless about anything relating to do with machine learning and I haven't seen any evidence that anyone else at the helm of the org is any better.

Watch Elon Musk try really hard not to cringe at the shit Jack Ma says on the topic of ML.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3lUEnMaiAU

Re: U.S. widens trade blacklist to include some of China’s top AI startups

#280

Post by trianglem »

stale2002 wrote: post #150
vunie wrote: post #144

So far, china has only retaliated defensively against the us. I wonder what will happen when china decides to go on the offensive the same way the us has and hit were it really hurts? What will happen if they cut off the us entirely and force asian countries to cease trading with it (i.e. using the same strategies used to isolate iran or turkey). Successful military intervention is unlikely since china is a nuclear s…

> What will happen if they cut off the us entirely and force asian countries to cease trading with it What happens when we do it to them? China is powerful, sure. But they aren't more powerful than the western world. We'll win that fight. (Well, by "win" I mean suffer less damages). Western companies are also already pretty cut off from the Chinese market. Cutting them off even more so is unlikely to have as huge if…

I'm not so sure anymore. I think Asia may actually have a leg up on us again for the first time in centuries.
Post reply on HN