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Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

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Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#701

Post by gfdgsgaagrhstrs »

busterarm wrote: post #534
CydeWeys wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether a state uses terrorist tactics is orthogonal to the issue of it being a state. Was the Russian shooting down of MH-17 not a terrorist act undertaken by a state? How about the bombing of the Beirut barracks? How about any number of acts by Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, or Imperial Japan?

Sure, I won't even dispute that. What I'm disputing is that the parent poster said that ISIS did not use terrorist tactics. That is blatantly a false statement. I can't believe the negative reaction towards pointing that out.

You're getting some negative reaction because you're missing the points OP was making.

1) At points, they were waging a war that did not rely on terrorist/guerrilla tactics. OP did not claim they don't do 'terrorist stuff' at all. Waging conventional war requires control of territory, which is why this is important.

2) Saying ISIS is/controls a state would have you labeled as a terrorist sympathizer in the media or in conversation. This demonstrates that calling something a 'state' has an implicit moral connotation in popular culture. OP is arguing this should not be true.

None of OPs points were a _moral_ judgement of ISIS. I think we can all agree ISIS is bad.

For instance, I strongly believe Palestine should be an independent, free state distinct from Israel. However, the UN _recognizing_ it as a state does not mean it magically becomes one. The UN is just making a political point, but sadly one that has little impact on the reality in Palestine.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#702

Post by dpkonofa »

leppr wrote: post #574
dpkonofa wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>less ethical option Are you getting that because of this flag issue or is there more behind that? I would argue that Apple is, by far, the more ethical option.

Was speaking about this issue specifically, but I'd be interested in hearing your arguments for the opposite side. From Apple's historically more oppressive stance against freedom of expression in their own wallet garden, and the recent actions against the HK protest movement ("legitimate" app ban, the present article), my opinion is that Apple is a less ethical choice than Android which is more permissive and respec…

>From Apple's historically more oppressive stance against freedom of expression in their own wallet garden, and the recent actions against the HK protest movement

I would love to see how you justify Apple's actions as "historically oppressive" when it comes to App Store rejections. Even the case that you specify in Hong Kong wasn't Apple's actions "against the HK protest movement". The App was rejected initially because it was thought to violate specific terms and it was appealed and approved within days. To try and frame that as Apple being morally or ethically deficient is really, really disingenuous.

The opposite side is that Apple is the only company that's not actively selling user data and/or using it against users. Android may be more permissive from a general standpoint but even that comes at the huge, huge cost of a lack of privacy and a completely lack of concern for personal freedom. Even from a security standpoint, I would argue that Google is less ethical simply because they don't act on nefarious actors that they know about. Being permissive isn't the same thing as being ethical.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#703

Post by rrix2 »

xur17 wrote: post #460
rrix2 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per guidelines, reach out to dang or so: > Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email us and we'll look at the data.

Sorry about that. I actually looked before posting, but could only find hn@ycombinator.com - is that the correct email?

No worries, I believe that's the correct address, yes.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#704

Post by zepto »

CharlesColeman wrote: post #695
zepto wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a clearly false distinction. If Apple turns over the files of one individual to the government, then whole society is vulnerable to that, and this is incomparably more oppressive than removing a one of the UI buttons that displays a particular flag.

The thing you're not getting is that removing an emoji at government direction for political reasons leaves the whole of society open to other things getting removed for similar reasons: such as books, movies, news reports, etc. That's nearly always oppressive. Turning over files to the government can be a normal law enforcement thing, and many societies have figured out how to do that and preserve civil liberties. I…

The thing you aren’t getting is that hiding a single emoji button for a flag in Hong Kong makes almost no contribution to changing the state of Chinese censorship and is enshrined in Chinese law, whereas intentionally undermining encryption on consumer products in the US At the behest of the government is both unconstitutional, unprecedented and a massive concession to authoritarianism.

You continue to make an absurd and indefensible false equivalence.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#705

Post by CharlesColeman »

zepto wrote: post #704
CharlesColeman wrote: post #695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing you're not getting is that removing an emoji at government direction for political reasons leaves the whole of society open to other things getting removed for similar reasons: such as books, movies, news reports, etc. That's nearly always oppressive. Turning over files to the government can be a normal law enforcement thing, and many societies have figured out how to do that and preserve civil liberties. I…

The thing you aren’t getting is that hiding a single emoji button for a flag in Hong Kong makes almost no contribution to changing the state of Chinese censorship and is enshrined in Chinese law, whereas intentionally undermining encryption on consumer products in the US At the behest of the government is both unconstitutional, unprecedented and a massive concession to authoritarianism. You continue to make an absurd…

> You continue to make an absurd and indefensible false equivalence.

You're stridently insisting on your interpretation, when there's more than one way to look at it. I'm just asking you to not dismiss the emoji thing so easily.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#706

Post by IIAOPSW »

gfdgsgaagrhstrs wrote: post #701
busterarm wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I won't even dispute that. What I'm disputing is that the parent poster said that ISIS did not use terrorist tactics. That is blatantly a false statement. I can't believe the negative reaction towards pointing that out.

You're getting some negative reaction because you're missing the points OP was making. 1) At points, they were waging a war that did not rely on terrorist/guerrilla tactics. OP did not claim they don't do 'terrorist stuff' at all. Waging conventional war requires control of territory, which is why this is important. 2) Saying ISIS is/controls a state would have you labeled as a terrorist sympathizer in the media or i…

Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#707

Post by Aeolun »

incompatible wrote: post #533
Aeolun wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parts of the Netherlands are called provinces, and are not sovereign nations. The larger area you call the Netherlands that includes Belgium and Luxembourg is currently called the Benelux[1] 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benelux

I was thinking of the Kingdom of the Netherlands with its constituent countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands

Ah, my apologies. I’ve never heard ‘the Netherlands’ used to refer to the kingdom without actually specifying that part.

(And a few times to the 1700’s ish low countries, hence my confusion)

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#708

Post by Aeolun »

vore wrote: post #634
Aeolun wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s about time China gets the chance to make good on this promise, or gets defanged when it turns out they don’t have the stomach for it (they have a good thing going, shame to let it be ruined by war). Everyone is tiptoeing around them for fear of waking the dragon.

An uneasy peace is miles better than war.

To a point. I’m not saying we should have a war. I’m saying we should stop tiptoeing around China.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#709

Post by brobinson »

vkou wrote: post #452
AWildC182 wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UN is a political organization and, importantly, highly leveraged by China for political gain. The objective reality is that Taiwan is an independent country that sets its own laws and is free to conduct its own foreign relations.

The objective reality is that most of the world, including the United States, does not actually recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country. It recognizes that it exists as... Something. I think you would be hard-pressed to argue that the Department of State, and its counterparts in Canada, the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Greece, Brazil, Japan[1], etc, etc, etc, have been 'highly leveraged by China for political g…

The US has "acknowledged" the "One China" position of both sides of the Strait since the 1970s, but it has never supported the notion that Taiwan (and Kinmen, Taiping, etc.) is PRC territory or that the mainland is ROC territory. "China" is not a nationstate. There's only the ROC (1912) and PRC (1949).

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#710

Post by foota »

on_and_off wrote: post #642
foota wrote: post #618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but this time it is from one country to another" Isn't Hollywood the same?

I am not sure I follow ?

You said, with regards to China influencing things in the US: "Propaganda is not exactly new ... after all the US army also has a lot of control when they give support to a movie and demand that they are portrayed favorably but [this time it is from one country to another]"

I'm pointing out though that the influence the US has through Hollywood is effectively global, and therefore also "from one country to another".

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