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macOS 10.15 Vista

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Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#51

Post by azinman2 »

bsaul wrote: post #18
etchalon wrote: post #3

I understand this is chaos, but it's chaos because it has to be. There's no way to move users from an world of opaque "if it's an application, it can do anything it wants" to a world of "applications should ask me when they want to do something" transparency. The idea that Apple doesn't care about the Mac because it's trying to explicitly improve our privacy and security is … weird.

I don’t think you read the post properly : all those popups appeared after an OS migration. I don’t see why upgrading the OS would need you to reauthorize apps, and even parts of the OS like icloud shouldn’t require you to relog (unless the security mechanism of icloud itself has been upgraded to a new system with no migration possible of the credentials).

These are new permissions that didn’t previously exist.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#52

Post by toomim »

etchalon wrote: post #23
js2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple could have figured out a way to coalesce all the individual pop-ups into a single window. I'm sure they considered it and deemed it not worth the effort since this is a one-time pain... of course it's one-time pain shared by millions of users. :-(

An individual window would have completely destroyed the point. The point was to make you aware of what permissions the applications you use require access to. And to get explicit permission from the user.

You could do that within a single window.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#53

Post by Zenw »

I just wanna tell you guys a wonderful feature for 10.15 - I use `OmniDiskSweeper` to moving a hidden file to the Trash than I can't either empty or access the Trash with Terminal. Yes, this hidden file lay in my Trash as a zombie. I like zombie stuff including zombie gaming zombie film and now I got a zombie OS, it's cooooool.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#54

Post by president »

nikanj wrote: post #48
yowlingcat wrote: post #8

Very sad to agree with this entire post. I hate to essentialize it to an already checked and problematic mythology of Jobs-Ives, but it seems like all of the air left the sails after Jobs passed. The OS versions are getting unreservedly worse, likewise with the hardware -- it's active regression rather than stagnation. When it comes to having a quality laptop and OS to get work done, I would at least be happy with st…

What really irks me is the touchbar. It's never going away, not because people like it, but because so many would lose face if they admitted it was a bad idea.

I'm curious if the guy who came up with that even uses it. Honestly one of the worst "features" that Apple has ever green-lighted.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#55

Post by Wowfunhappy »

etchalon wrote: post #3

I understand this is chaos, but it's chaos because it has to be. There's no way to move users from an world of opaque "if it's an application, it can do anything it wants" to a world of "applications should ask me when they want to do something" transparency. The idea that Apple doesn't care about the Mac because it's trying to explicitly improve our privacy and security is … weird.

I expect applications to have access to my desktop. I do not need to be asked. It would be like asking permission to access my clipboard, or use my speakers, or read my keyboard.

If you bombard users with dialogues for every little thing, all you will do is train them to habitually click yes. Now you have lowered security, because users will ignore the more serious warnings too. And you've wasted everyone's time in the process.

This was exactly why UAC dialogues were largely a failure. And to think that UAC appears only once per app...

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#56

Post by dmix »

Fine grained privacy control is not the same as being notified 14 times about the same thing by Windows, even though you said you didn't want notifications already.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#57

Post by olliej »

wayneftw wrote: post #28

I’m surprised they didn’t ask for a password too, after clicking OK on each dialog. I’m not surprised at the UX though, Apple has always done a pretty terrible job of that for power users.

The problem with "power users" is fairly simple: defining what a power user is, isn't trivial, and different people have different ideas as to what is good. Then you have being a "power user" does not mean "I want any app on my system to be able to do anything".

As for not asking for their password: This actually makes a lot of sense. Users already hit "ok" fairly quickly (I assume the inclusion of the readable name + icon in the dialog is to make noticing what is being asked more immediately obvious). Requiring a password would have the effect of making every new app ask for a password, so you are training a user to (effectively) grant root access for any software they install.

Compare the outcome: user auto clicks "give this app access to your contacts", app can access and/or encrypt the user's contacts. User auto-enters their account password: app can access and/or encrypt everything.

Note that even power users run into malware - they're not magically immune - and if you download "vscode" and it asks for access to your contacts, email, etc you might go "huh" and re-examine it.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#58

Post by DevKoala »

etchalon wrote: post #3

I understand this is chaos, but it's chaos because it has to be. There's no way to move users from an world of opaque "if it's an application, it can do anything it wants" to a world of "applications should ask me when they want to do something" transparency. The idea that Apple doesn't care about the Mac because it's trying to explicitly improve our privacy and security is … weird.

Very well said. It is a rough upgrade, but a step forward in security and privacy.

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#59

Post by olliej »

andrekandre wrote: post #13
someonehere wrote: post #2

Literally this was me this morning after I upgraded last night and went to bed. I get Apple wants to make people feel their in control of their privacy, but literally every app I use for work prompts me for every permission imaginable. “Oh the command you’re running in Terminal, it wants permissions to your Downloads folder, is that ok?” ::click yes:: “Guess what? That same command you’re running in Terminal now want…

> I get Apple wants to make people feel their in control of their privacy, but literally every app I use for work prompts me for every permission imaginable. i would guess this has the side-effect of making devs think hard about what really needs access or not, and tightening up where data is stored (say in the app container, not copying files willy nilly over the hd, using entitlements etc) > Oh the command you’re r…

It only happens on the first time, and only on access to a protected resource. This applies to builtin apps and 3rd party apps.

For Cocoa apps this mostly shouldn't happen ("power boxes" that do file open/close dialogs, etc)

Re: macOS 10.15 Vista

#60

Post by dpkonofa »

berberous wrote: post #15
etchalon wrote: post #3

I understand this is chaos, but it's chaos because it has to be. There's no way to move users from an world of opaque "if it's an application, it can do anything it wants" to a world of "applications should ask me when they want to do something" transparency. The idea that Apple doesn't care about the Mac because it's trying to explicitly improve our privacy and security is … weird.

It's a bad onboarding though, full stop, and not very Apple like. For example, I imagine there could be a way to present the user a screen with all apps, and ask the user on one screen to check/uncheck any that it would like to receive notifications for. Similarly, for the apps requesting access to various things, if I were Apple, I'd wait a bit and then present the user a list with the apps requesting access, explai…

I disagree but only for one major reason: the entire reason this is coming up is because the OP is using an old version of Alfred that wasn't prepped for the new permission settings of Catalina even though there's a fully compatible version that's been released since. The vast majority of users will never, ever get something this obnoxious so it's not a bad on-boarding experience as much as it's a side effect of running old software.
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