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An Update to Our Community and an Apology

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Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#391

Post by anon12345690 »

mthoms wrote: post #312
michannne wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I do know that knowingly and actively hurting people "because society does it too" when you could trivially avoid it is reprehensible My argument isn't "do it because society does it too", it's we already have systems in place to give people the therapeutic treatment they need to get past issues like this, which are issues, because it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's…

> it is unfeasible to expect society to shape itself around coddling that person's beliefs What indication do you have that a majority of the "society" in question (Stack Overflow) has a problem with addressing people in the manner they prefer? In other words, have you considered the possibility that you are the one with an opinion or belief that runs contrary to what this "society" expects of its members? If so, are…

the fact that 99.999% of people throughout history have gotten along just fine without worrying about different pronouns that dont match their gender

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#392

Post by tatersolid »

adrianN wrote: post #292
DoreenMichele wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trans individuals and other marginalized people often spend a lot of time online as a kind of safe haven from difficult personal circumstances. People online can be horrible asshats to a degree they wouldn't dare be in person. These two facts tend to collide and go bad places. (This comment is only describing the problem space, not taking sides in an argument.)

As other comments here already described, the gender of the person writing questions or answers on SO shouldn't matter at all. If you really want to avoid all issues with this, just randomize usernames for every topic and mandate gender neutral language. There is no need to use gendered pronouns in the Q/A format.

Indeed most writing which demands clarity and precision (legal documents, regulations, military reports, etc.) intentionally avoid ALL pronouns.

In a military report, the enemy isn’t ever referred to as “they” because that pronoun could also be understood to refer to another friendly unit or allied government force depending on ambiguous word order or mistranslation. Instead a term like OPFOR or similar is used consistently instead of a pronoun.

This is what sites like SE should use as a standard: precise and pronoun-free language for both questions and answers.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#393

Post by PhasmaFelis »

Invictus0 wrote: post #240
damnyou wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a both sides issue. The medical fields moved to complete affirmation of trans identities a while ago because the scientific evidence for trans affirmation is overwhelming -- literally everything from mental health outcomes to surgery regret rates indicates that. The other side is both bigoted and factually wrong .

This is exactly my point. The other side looks at you and says you're wrong with equal conviction and their own bevy of justifications. Since you and the other side can't mutually agree on some set of axioms of worldview, both sides' "facts" just become opinions.

The presence of two opposed positions does not imply that they're both equally plausible.

For example: one group believes in evolution, another believes God created the Earth out of nothing 6000 years ago. Without a time machine, neither one can categorically prove exactly what happened. But one side has mountains of evidence, and the other has dogma and ideology.

There's a lot we don't understand yet about how being trans works, just as there's plenty of gaps in the fossil record that we haven't been able to fill yet. But if you ignore all the evidence we do have in favor of cherry-picking only the isolated studies that might support your position, you're no better than the people who think that the scarcity of transitional fossils refutes evolution.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#394

Post by PhasmaFelis »

anon12345690 wrote: post #380
damnyou wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not a both sides issue. The medical fields moved to complete affirmation of trans identities a while ago because the scientific evidence for trans affirmation is overwhelming -- literally everything from mental health outcomes to surgery regret rates indicates that. The other side is both bigoted and factually wrong .

literally none of it does. what you just said is factually wrong. trans is a mental disorder and never stopped being that. some far-left activists are trying to say its not but that doesnt change the science. calling everyone a "bigot" doesnt change anything either other than show people that you arent reasonable and put feelings over facts

Most of the medical community disagrees with you.

You're allowed to believe whatever you want. Science doesn't care about your feelings. Cherry-picking only the studies that can be interpreted to support your opinion, while ignoring the balance of the research that disagrees, makes you no better than the people who insist that archaeological evidence supports young Earth creationism.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#395

Post by anon12345690 »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #394
anon12345690 wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

literally none of it does. what you just said is factually wrong. trans is a mental disorder and never stopped being that. some far-left activists are trying to say its not but that doesnt change the science. calling everyone a "bigot" doesnt change anything either other than show people that you arent reasonable and put feelings over facts

Most of the medical community disagrees with you. You're allowed to believe whatever you want. Science doesn't care about your feelings. Cherry-picking only the studies that can be interpreted to support your opinion, while ignoring the balance of the research that disagrees, makes you no better than the people who insist that archaeological evidence supports young Earth creationism.

nope lol are you in the medical community or are you getting this from twitter activists?

gender identity is accepted as different from sex and because males and females are different so its possible that some people may have gender dysphoria (which is literally a mental disorder like body dysmorphia). nobody disagrees with all that.

but 100 different genders and non-binary is not accepted by science. believing in that is like believing in creationism and flat earth at the same time.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#396

Post by anon12345690 »

forgotmypwd123 wrote: post #30

>Last week we made an important decision for our community. We removed a moderator for repeatedly violating our existing Code of Conduct and being unwilling to accept our CM’s repeated requests to change their behavior. Hang on a sec... >their behaviour. Wasn't monica fired for suggesting she used gender neutral pronouns generally? Because they said she should use the preferred gender specific pronoun when known? And…

welcome to clown world! lol this is what happens when you let crazy outraged people take over. the rules dont make sense. they just want to control people

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#397

Post by anon12345690 »

AlexB138 wrote: post #195
yourbandsucks wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

Because life isn't that simple. To one group "misgendering" people is harassment and therefore not nice. To another group being forced to speak as if someone is a gender you do not believe them to be is patronizing and not nice. No one is intentionally being unkind, other than the people who like to wade into the culture war

life has been pretty simple for centuries. this is a manufactured problem. seriously because if youre trans and change your name then people just go with your new pronoun automatically anyway. you literally have to go out of your way to be difficult with this and thats why people have problem accepting it

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#398

Post by anon12345690 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #169
yourbandsucks wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Just be nice to people. For fuck's sake.

> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.

nope expecting the world to cater to your pronouns is harassment of the 99.99% of people who dont need or want to deal with it. i cant think of a more privileged complaint.

if you want to make extreme choices then youre gonna have to accept that its not going to be as comfortable. nobody owes you anything

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#399

Post by anon12345690 »

flippinburgers wrote: post #192
yourbandsucks wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna wade in hip-deep here and suggest that, given the size of the transgender community, the heat and hype of these issues are completely unwarranted. No hate towards anyone and I'll call anyone whatever they want as far as pronouns. But why is this a top-3 culture war issue? For a bunch of combatants who are overwhelmingly not trans and shouldn't really care? We need to think of a way to rise above without thr…

Honestly it is very strange to me that this is being downvoted. The level of outrage that I see is not at all proportional to the number of people affected. This is a very strange phenomenon. I seriously feel that the most heated carriers of torches in this scenario are people who gravitate towards "power play" moments and have happily found a niche where they can be ruthless in their assault.

thats exactly it. people who have no serious problems so they invent new ones and love to play the moral outrage game because they get power over others

you see so many people who do this then get eaten by the same group when they inevitably screw up some rule in the future

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#400

Post by anon12345690 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #335
flippinburgers wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly it is very strange to me that this is being downvoted. The level of outrage that I see is not at all proportional to the number of people affected. This is a very strange phenomenon. I seriously feel that the most heated carriers of torches in this scenario are people who gravitate towards "power play" moments and have happily found a niche where they can be ruthless in their assault.

> The level of outrage that I see is not at all proportional to the number of people affected If you insist on calling a transman “she” because of his genitals at birth, then (aside from how to affects me because I have trans people I care about, which is, to be sure, the more important impact on me), it also means when you call me “he” it only coincidentally aligns with my preference rather than respecting it. Just…

distract? are you serious? yea this isn't distracting at all to 99.99% of people who can get along fine without worrying about pronoun rules.
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