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Joint Statement on the GNU Project

guix.gnu.org

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Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#221

Post by blub »

otterley wrote: post #124
dx87 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering that a big chunk of what was publicized was lies and deliberate misquotes, I think it'd be best if the GNU project said specifically what their issues are.

At this point the truth or falsity of the minutiae, or whether the conclusions are fair or not are irrelevant. Once a former leader no longer has the political capital to be seen as effective, or their involvement proves to be a greater distraction than it's worth, no more needs to be said.

You're legitimizing character assassination campaigns. But only as long as they're successful.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#222

Post by marco_salvatori »

dtornabene wrote: post #72

For anyone coming to this, I can't speak for all of the people on that list, but the ones that I've met personally, over a decade now in the free software world, are decent caring people actually following the creed of freedom to its rightful conclusion . The idea that this is a "witchhunt" is absurd.

I cant speak for any of the people on that list either. But if they are committed to the core values of free software and empowerment for all, then its plausible to me that, rather than words in a joint statement, they should fork the FSF. That is the course of action on which the FSF was founded and would be proof positive of their commitment to the core values they profess. They can then proceed to build a better project, with stronger core values, including universal empowerment. There is no one that has to be judged; there are no joint statements that need to be written. That is the wonderful thing about freedom. One can build, perhaps has the obligation to build, the better world that should exist.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#223

Post by 68plus57equals5 »

yongjik wrote: post #144
falcolas wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm dramatically misreading all the various articles, only a few women that were directly approached by Stallman for a romantic encounter felt discouraged. This did not impact a vast majority of the women who have, and do, contribute to GNU projects. Yeah, he fucked up in approaching those women and making them uncomfortable. However, a couple of data points do not a trend make.

If the nicest thing we can say about a leader of an organization is that most women were not harassed by him because they didn't get to meet him , then maybe it's time to look for a leader who is, you know, capable of actually meeting people without creeping them out.

> If the nicest thing we can say about a leader of an organization is that most women were not harassed by him because they didn't get to meet him,

This is extremely unfair statement, completely misrepresenting the issue.

If you rephrased it as "one of bad things we can say about a leader is he allegedly tried to push somebody into relationship in 1985" you'd be closer to the mark.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#224

Post by blub »

bepvte wrote: post #153
blub wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women will never "be able to contribute and simply be part of the free software community without harassment", because any online community is a reflection of society at large, which is becoming more fragmented, agressive and embittered. Did female harassment get solved in society at large? No. You can't solve it in online communities, you're only building bubbles of false-safety which will pop once the pressure from…

How would you solve harassment then? If you dont believe in small changes in smaller communities, do you believe that change has to occur in all of society at once?

I believe change has to happen in the real world and start with educating children and then continue in schools and colleges. We literally have to grow generations for which equality is self-evident.

And people will know what's fair and when they're being bullied. The change has to work towards equality, not revenge and entrapping others.

Currently the exact opposite is happening: the changes are forced by small online groups, mostly associated with software development. Which bully others into submission.

You've probably noticed how in the real world, society is quite divided, with basic civil rights being questioned. This is what happens when people "win" in their little software bubbles.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#225

Post by joshuamorton »

virgilp wrote: post #146
kennywinker wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, so if the assholery happens at work then the equivalent of "shouldn't invite you over for dinner again" is being asked not to come back to work.

Except that in this analogy, RMS is the one who invited them for dinner. You don't simply get to tell the host that "we don't like you but I think we'll keep meeting in your house for dinner.

So you're saying that RMS, is the sole owner of everything GNU?

No. This is equivalent to a threat to strike. RMS without the GNU project maintainers is just a dude with a blog. And this approximates a vote of no confidence.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#226

Post by t0astbread »

sprash wrote: post #186
t0astbread wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the people taking part in the character assasination plot against Stallman running right now work in fact for Saleaforce, IBM or some other FAANG type of organization Maybe those corporations do a better job at providing an inclusive environment than the free software community? And those people are interested in bringing the same to the FS world. (Whether or not it was necessary to push Stallman out for th…

The FOSS community is about hobbyist recreational programming for FUN. If you want to kill the FUN you introduce COCs, you guilt trip people of a certain gender and race (white male) for simply existing and you create artificial drama via divide and conquer like the current Stallman campagn. Congratulations, mission accomplished, the fun has been eradicated. Inviting the corporate world into FOSS was a grave mistake.…

I can see why you'd think these sort of modernization measures are about guilt tripping white men but that's (hopefully) not what people actually want. The only ones that should really feel guilty are those that categorically and intentionally exclude or mistreat others.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#227

Post by t0astbread »

simion314 wrote: post #189
t0astbread wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question is (at least in case of Brendan Eich), when does an opinion stop being an opinion and start being just harmful hate? Surely we can all agree that there is a line to draw somewhere.

The problem is can we measure and who measures what is harmful or uncomfortable. I am sure if it was just an opinion he would have shared with a group of people and then leaked would have had a similar effect. I do not agree with the guy opinion but I dislike when social media mobs put pressure on organization to fire people.

Setting/measuring what's considered harmful is (or should be) society's job (with the help of journalism).

I don't see it very critical when society puts pressure on an organization to fire a high-profile leader (and decision maker!) who publicly does something harmful. But I do acknowledge that this could generate a dangerous dynamic if spun in the wrong direction. It's a tradeoff: Either you allow cancel culture or you allow bad actors in powerful/influental positions.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#228

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

My company has released several applications under GNU GPLv3 and AGPLv3 licenses, and is preparing to release more. We wouldn't have done this without rms.

This 'collective of GNU maintainers'is lying about rms actions undermining the core values of GNU projects. 'Collective' is alienating us from participating in GNU projects and I suggest to remove them from further discussions about the organization of the project.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#229

Post by daxorid »

simion314 wrote: post #29

I would suggest GNU people to not rush into decisions, the things are too heated at this moment, I am afraid we get a fracture of the project. I am also having a bad feeling that Linus Torwalds is next, that a list of 20 years old emails is already prepared and some people are ready to tweat something that maybe happened long in the past that made them uncomfortable. Maybe that public apology Linus did this year was…

I am also having a bad feeling that Linus Torwalds is next

No, he successfully capitulated to the mob and pinky swore that he will no longer use big bad meany words that might offend the children who currently police the LKML.

Who you should really worry about is Theo de Raadt. OpenBSD is a sitting duck for Ehmke, et. al.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#230

Post by meowface »

Jasper_ wrote: post #45
etiam wrote: post #20

Oh my god. " all computer users" with the implication that Stallman is not representing the ones who demand to go straight to lynch mob behavior without a shadow if due process as soon as the word "sexual" is mentioned? And therefore Stallman should be thrown out of the project that is his creation and life's work? That's got to be one of the most forced political readings ever of that point in the manifesto. Well, i…

Stallman's behavior has been known to the community for a long time. He's been banned from multiple free software conferences that I've visited for his behavior; the first one of such was 7 years ago. This isn't a new "witch hunt", it's been boiling forever, it's been known forever, but now the climate has changed enough that people are believing the allegations, and he's finally facing consequences for his actions.…

This discussion would be much more productive if you discussed the specific things you're referring to. Just saying "the accusations" contributes to FUD.
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