Joint Statement on the GNU Project • Hacker News Board

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#111

Post by maximente » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:25 PM UTC

jordigh wrote: post #22

bitwize wrote: post #15

If I believed for a second that any successor candidate to lead the GNU project gave as much of a fuck about software and personal freedom as Stallman did/does, I might support them. My confidence that this will transpire, however, is not high.

There are lots of us who care. We can preserve software freedom with the same stubborn, uncompromising attitude without having to also alienate the very people we wish to help.

you are reframing (weakening) the OP's standard.

the standard is not "care", it's "gave as much of a fuck about software and personal freedom as Stallman did/does".

RMS used an absolute garbage computer because it was, in his words:

> the only laptop one could buy that could run a free initialization program and a free operating system.

i'm certainly not taking it on some contributor's word that these 20 or so odd people are as principled as RMS that i trust the project to be led by them. my guess is a large fraction are pragmatists (like most normal people) who use a nonfree BIOS setup for productivity, or have an iPhone/android because "normal", etc.

so, while certainly more like normal people, they aren't as principled. and what you want in a position like RMS's is someone so principled that they basically are immune to attack and inspire others to take on those principles. nobody's taking RMS seriously if he's giving talks from his macbook air.

as far as i can tell, RMS is so principled that it actually hindered the long term success of GCC. it would have behooved the long term strategic goals to make GCC the best/"only" compiler by making a BSD/MIT style version, so as to accept more liberal contributions, but he didn't.

he seems to be principled to a fault. is this group of 20 or so people as consistent as he was? i sincerely doubt it.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#112

Post by dragonwriter » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:26 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #44

duxup wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that is what they mean by "all computer users". You can not be a part of a lynch mob, and still take issue with Stallman's statements / behavior.

I only seen some accusation that appeared now after 20 years , where RMS said something and some people were made uncomfortable. I agree RMS is not a sociable person but I would have preferred to see some significant "crime" , now I have the feeling that you can be kicked out from your own project if you made a stupid comment or thing in the past and the social media gets enraged by mostly FUD and exagerations of you…

> I agree RMS is not a sociable person

Project leadership is a social task. Sometimes, being well-suited to be a chief-of-doctrinal-purity or chief-of-technology is not being well-suited to being a chief-of-chiefs.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#113

Post by blub » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

dtornabene wrote: post #104

falcolas wrote: post #91

Back when we collectively ousted Brandon Eich from Mozilla, I thought we were doing the right thing. However, that slope is awfully slippery, and we are now ousting people from their own projects for sins that have no real bearing on the project. This isn't making our community better, for there is nobody that exists that doesn't have skeletons in their closets. People are claiming here that they can have just as muc…

the ability for women to be able to contribute and simply be a part of the free software community without harrassment does not fall under "no real bearing on the project", just so we're clear here.

Women will never "be able to contribute and simply be part of the free software community without harassment", because any online community is a reflection of society at large, which is becoming more fragmented, agressive and embittered.

Did female harassment get solved in society at large? No. You can't solve it in online communities, you're only building bubbles of false-safety which will pop once the pressure from the real world becomes high enough.

America in particular is under so much political and social tension that it's starting to show cracks and online lynch mobs are a part of the problem.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#114

Post by Smithalicious » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

codesections wrote: post #84

Smithalicious wrote: post #63

This statement makes clear to me that I can no longer trust (parts of) the GNU project to prioritize software freedom and making good software over catering to hateful lynchmobs and virtue signalling. There's no meaningful way for me to act on this current, since "boycotting" GNU does nothing to harm these bad elements and I do not contribute back to GNU. I can merely convey my profound disapproval. This is a disgrac…

> RMS is, in my view, a completely innocent man Note that the Joint Statement does not take a position on the statements that the most recent controversy has been about. Instead, it speaks about "behavior over the years"[0]. Of course, the recent controversy doubtless played a role in bringing all this to a head, but it is possible for someone to believe both that RMS is "completely innocent" of wrongful conduct and…

Hence why I followed up with saying that that supposed behaviour over the years does not justify this either. But I don't think that behaviour is what this is about to begin with. Everything about this smells of "well, what about that time you ..."; reaching back in time when they can't justify their outrage. A problem is being manufactured to justify bowing to public outrage caused by yellow journalism.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#115

Post by falcolas » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:28 PM UTC

dtornabene wrote: post #104

falcolas wrote: post #91

Back when we collectively ousted Brandon Eich from Mozilla, I thought we were doing the right thing. However, that slope is awfully slippery, and we are now ousting people from their own projects for sins that have no real bearing on the project. This isn't making our community better, for there is nobody that exists that doesn't have skeletons in their closets. People are claiming here that they can have just as muc…

the ability for women to be able to contribute and simply be a part of the free software community without harrassment does not fall under "no real bearing on the project", just so we're clear here.

Unless I'm dramatically misreading all the various articles, only a few women that were directly approached by Stallman for a romantic encounter felt discouraged. This did not impact a vast majority of the women who have, and do, contribute to GNU projects.

Yeah, he fucked up in approaching those women and making them uncomfortable. However, a couple of data points do not a trend make.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#116

Post by kennywinker » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:29 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #95

kennywinker wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I come to your house for dinner, and am an asshole to you and your family, do we need to get the law involved or should you just not invite me over for dinner again?

Perhaps I pull you aside, call you out for your actions, and give you the chance to change your ways. One strike and your out isn't even how we play baseball.

... from the sounds of it, I assume the pull-aside convo happened and failed.

Maybe I'm too trusting. I have no evidence that kind of a convo happened. But the allegations are that RMS has been a missing stair for well over 20 years. I find it very hard to believe that someone who's been causing problems in a community for 20+ years has never had a friend pull them aside and ask them to change their behaviour.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#117

Post by rowanG077 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:31 PM UTC

kennywinker wrote: post #94

rowanG077 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't show respect to people that throw their leader under the bus at the first sign of trouble. They have achieved some cool technical stuff but that is no excuse for being a sad sack of a human.

You're literally doing what you describe. Throwing away a bunch of people at the first sign of an action you disagree with.

These people are not in any way the leaders of a group I belong to. I'm not part of GNU. So I'm not doing the same thing at all.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#118

Post by bitwize » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

DuskStar wrote: post #85

dtornabene wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course they don't. because there isn't any . These people, some of whom, like Andy Wingo and Chris Webber, have been doing this for well over a decade. its asinine.

Why does "they've been doing this for a decade" mean "they aren't trying to oust major free software figures"?

To clarify I don't think the long-time hackers on that list are trying to oust major free software figures.

What they are doing is a partial capitulation to those who are, most of whom are trying to effect a value shift in the free software community that undermines the bedrock principles of free software itself. I refer you to Coraline Ada Ehmke's views on the "pernicious cult of meritocracy" and her attempts to get licenses with legally sticky do-no-evil clauses approved as free/open source licenses.

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#119

Post by simion314 » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:33 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #112

simion314 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only seen some accusation that appeared now after 20 years , where RMS said something and some people were made uncomfortable. I agree RMS is not a sociable person but I would have preferred to see some significant "crime" , now I have the feeling that you can be kicked out from your own project if you made a stupid comment or thing in the past and the social media gets enraged by mostly FUD and exagerations of you…

> I agree RMS is not a sociable person Project leadership is a social task. Sometimes, being well-suited to be a chief-of-doctrinal-purity or chief-of-technology is not being well-suited to being a chief-of-chiefs.

His job is to present his idea, mostly write and present it. He does not need to go in schools,bars and churches to trick people into his believes. He has a mathematical style of presenting things: primary notions, definitions, axioms . Though I liked his sense of humor (probably some religions zelot would dislike the saint joke)

Re: Joint Statement on the GNU Project

#120

Post by shadowgovt » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 6:34 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #107

shadowgovt wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you didn't read it, you failed to read the part about "Richard Stallman has been contributing to a negative environment for women at MIT for over thirty years," with citations.

Then the anti RMS group could create a blog post that is 100% factual and fake. You can put facts and testimonials with names and time period when it happen, bonus points if you can mention any conflict of interest or personal biases this people may have. I read in other places about RMS pathetic way of asking for a date so I know he was and is not perfect.

You seem to disagree that that imperfection, along with his other documented imperfections, isn't sufficient to induce people to want to walk away from his leadership.

You're entitled to your opinion, but other people would disagree with your opinion on the topic. And because free software is free as in freedom, they're certainly welcome to attempt to route around him (whether that fractures the community will be up to the community as a whole).