Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#351

Post by kelnos » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:33 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #279

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

Whoever coded this change and approved this PR, shame on you. And therein lies the problem. We want to blame a programmer, or a flack. But it's never one or two people. The real issue is a bureaucratic system or corporate culture that allows things like this to happen. Everyone can point fingers at someone else and absolve themselves internally of blame. Taiwan should block shipments to Apple of whatever parts are ma…

> Taiwan should block shipments to Apple of whatever parts are made there that Apple needs.

Taiwan unfortunately needs to be careful. China is just waiting for provocation strong enough to justify an invasion. Would that be it? Maybe, maybe not.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#352

Post by CharlesColeman » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:35 PM UTC

natch wrote: post #254

CharlesColeman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing an emoji from a keyboard is as scary as hacking all of someone’s personal data? Yes. While seemly small, removing the emoji is an instance of political censorship.

I doubt Apple leadership is unbothered by the reality of censorship that some countries impose. Unfortunately China fully embraces censorship though. There is a lot of good done by giving another billion and a half people access to a non-privacy-invading mobile OS so balancing that against bowing to censorship is a tough decision. If you think you disagree, please discuss your reasons.

> There is a lot of good done by giving another billion and a half people access to a non-privacy-invading mobile OS so balancing that against bowing to censorship is a tough decision.

> If you think you disagree, please discuss your reasons.

Because it's not going to work that way, since that "access" actually amounts to authoritarian leverage over the ecosystem. Apple feels it needs the Chinese market more than the PRC feels it needs Apple [1]. As a result Apple's already haded over the Chinese iCloud to a local company (state owned, I think), which will undoubtably hand over encryption keys to the authorities whenever it's asked. It's not inconceivable to me that the PRC may use its leverage over Apple further weaken the iPhone ecosystem (either for Chinese phones or worldwide).

[1] The PRC has many domestic manufacturers like Huawei, Xiaomi, Oppo (~OnePlus), Vivo, etc. The domestic costs for them for banning a foreign maker with a sub-10% marketshare like Apple are approximately zero.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#353

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:36 PM UTC

gyc wrote: post #283

georgeburdell wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is based in Cupertino, which is at least half Chinese, and is a heavily staffed with Chinese overall. You assume they have Western political sensibilities. Edit: latest demographic data from Wiki, from 2010, says 63% Asian and 26% Chinese

People from Taiwan are probably counted as Chinese in the demographics.

And Cupertino is very heavily Taiwanese. Anecdotally (my wife is Taiwanese-American, grew up in Cupertino), they outnumber mainlanders. Most of the big Asian chains in Cupertino (eg. 99 Ranch, 85C, Meet Fresh, most of the restaurants in Cupertino Village) are actually Taiwanese or Taiwanese-American and have no presence in mainland China.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#354

Post by chadlavi » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

chrischen wrote: post #345

dheera wrote: post #123

It's worth noting that the ROC flag (== Taiwan flag) was the flag flown all over the mainland before 1949. It's a part of mainland history as well. I'm not supporting any political stance here, but just saying that it's a bit weird to ban a symbol that was part of the mainland's history as well, and on its own, carries more historical significance than just Taiwan independence.

While the US doesn’t ban the confederate flag, it is heavily discouraged and official government cannot use it. Lots of controversy over confederate symbolism too with one side arguing it is history, and another arguing it is racist symbolism. Germany bans the swastika. I do think it is well within the sovereign right of a nation to ban symbols of a competing government. In Taiwan’s case it is claiming itself as a ri…

it's a lot more like if the confederacy won and banned the stars and bars in this case.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#355

Post by kelnos » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:37 PM UTC

musicale wrote: post #334

datagram wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what we know about how the emoji blocking was implemented for mainland China, I doubt it's a benign feature just being misused: https://objective-see.com/blog/blog_0x34.html Notably, the code specifically looks for the "CN" locale, and calls "removeEmoji".

Wow, that is depressing. I would definitely be ashamed to implement a feature like that.

I could easily imagine (especially at a place like Apple where there's a ton of internal secrecy), the ticket for implementing removeEmoji() could have been pitched in a much broader fashion: perhaps there would be a "child mode" that would remove the middle finger emoji and others like that.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#356

Post by guelo » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:41 PM UTC

thrwn_frthr_awy wrote: post #106

jaynetics wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The U.S. and others have sold their soul to the devil for $299 flat screen tvs. This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? In truth, I think most people are simply unaware of the many problems caused both by consumerism, and the moral spinelessness of pretty much all large corporations and how that is brought about by market forces. Even in…

> This seems to suggest the populace is at fault, wanting and buying cheap gadgets no matter what the consequences are? I'm sorry it came off that way, as I do not blame people for the propaganda of their government (U.S. or China). I do absolutely believe that we shouldn't be able to off-shore environmental/worker's rights policies. If you want to sell something in California, it should be made with the same environ…

Environmental and human rights standards.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#357

Post by CharlesColeman » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

Macuyiko wrote: post #190

organsnyder wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I'd probably have made the same decision as you (I'm fortunate to have a safety net), but many people don't have that luxury.

I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.

> I agree. We shouldn't blame the engineer but the managers asking for this in the first place and knowing they can get away with any sort of "small pressures" they put on their employees.

If we blame anyone, it should be the CEOs, board members, and large shareholders.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#358

Post by 3PercentMan » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #340

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

Perhaps the engineer in question is a Chinese citizen, or immigrant from China who still has strong ties to their homeland. Maybe they think it was right to remove the Taiwan flag, and has been quietly annoyed for years that it'd still been there. Or, hell, maybe the person is an American citizen, not even of Chinese descent, and agrees with the PRC's stance on Taiwan. (Frankly I probably wouldn't get along with some…

but why not? It sounds like your personal opinion.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#359

Post by yourbandsucks » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

howhigh12323 wrote: post #284

yourbandsucks wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts are rarely black and white. Look at USA reporting about Venezuela or Cuba. It's factual, yet it also implicitly takes sides. Which facts? How are they presented?

You are confusing perspective with facts. A cup is filled with water, you can say its half empty or half full. The cup has water is a fact. Whether its half empty or half full is perspective. But at the end of the day, there is still water in the cup.

I'm relating perspective to facts.

Palestine has a UN seat, Taiwan doesn't. Taiwan has control of their territory, Palestine doesn't.

Which one is more 'a country'?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#360

Post by tibbon » Mon, Oct 07, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #251

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

If you apply the idea that in order to work for a company that you must ethically agree with every single one of its decisions and associations consistently, you’ll end up with absolutely nowhere to work. This comment doesn’t represent a principled stance, only a case of moral outrage (and over an emoji). If you actually behaved like this, you’d get fired, and somebody else would simply ship this simple change (that…

I used to think that, but after long searching I have found that there are actually companies (often non-profits, but not always) that do hold reasonable morals.

If this act didn't stand to hurt anyone, why did China care in the first place so much? Let's look at the converse, what does having a flag in a phone do that hurts China?