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Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

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Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#341

Post by meiraleal »

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

> What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this?

The same that made Adobe cancel Venezuelans accounts today: the power of government and regulation.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#342

Post by reaperducer »

munchbunny wrote: post #328
reaperducer wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I believe the applicable phrase here is "courage of your convictions." I've been fired twice for refusing to do things that I thought were unethical. Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. A few years ago I stood up t…

Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings? Having a safety net generally means that your situation might be tough but you're okay if you quit/lose your job. Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net". The definition has gray area (such as if your family in your…

Did you mean safety net as in another job lined up or substantial personal savings?

I had neither. I took menial temp jobs and short-term manual labor jobs for a while until I could get something full-time in my field. Took about six months the first time, and nine months the second time.

Getting deported because of your H1B would be an example of "doesn't have a safety net".

Is it? It's not like if you lose your job when you're on an H1B they send you to the suicide booth. You just end up back in your old country, but with a much better resume. Yes, life is harder than it was in the United States, but you start again.

That's what people do — they get back up when they're knocked down. I've done it four times now. Losing an H1B is not the end of someone's life.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#343

Post by mwyah »

tibbon wrote: post #182

What's it take for an engineer in the US to actually do something like this? If my boss/product manager wanted me to do something like this, I'd be calling them out for shitty politics, and telling them they need to find a new engineer because I'd quit immediately - and likely incite others to come with me. Maybe I have a higher sense of morality than others, but I'm no shill for China's power over Taiwan. I can use…

Reminds me of the good ol' "what kind of person would assist the ICE finding and deporting illegals". Answer: not everybody agrees with your views on politics.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#344

Post by zajd »

reaperducer wrote: post #274
organsnyder wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I'd probably have made the same decision as you (I'm fortunate to have a safety net), but many people don't have that luxury.

Perhaps that engineer had a baby on the way and was terrified of losing health coverage, or was in the United States on an H1B visa and was afraid they'd be deported... I believe the applicable phrase here is "courage of your convictions." I've been fired twice for refusing to do things that I thought were unethical. Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued. A few years ago I stood up t…

> I've been fired twice for refusing to do things that I thought were unethical. Neither time did I have a safety net ready. But my life still continued.

Do you have kids? I mean, I have done the same, but only when I was single. When you have other people depending on you, the calculus changes.

Beyond that, imagine you're a manager at Apple that has to get this done. I'm sure you know exactly who not to ask and who to ask. The system selects for people who don't stand up to power.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#345

Post by chrischen »

dheera wrote: post #123

It's worth noting that the ROC flag (== Taiwan flag) was the flag flown all over the mainland before 1949. It's a part of mainland history as well. I'm not supporting any political stance here, but just saying that it's a bit weird to ban a symbol that was part of the mainland's history as well, and on its own, carries more historical significance than just Taiwan independence.

While the US doesn’t ban the confederate flag, it is heavily discouraged and official government cannot use it. Lots of controversy over confederate symbolism too with one side arguing it is history, and another arguing it is racist symbolism.

Germany bans the swastika.

I do think it is well within the sovereign right of a nation to ban symbols of a competing government. In Taiwan’s case it is claiming itself as a rightful government to China, which is actually somewhat different than simply a historical symbol. Allowing it can be a tacit acknowledgement of legitimacy.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#346

Post by CharlesColeman »

zepto wrote: post #263
CharlesColeman wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Removing an emoji from a keyboard is as scary as hacking all of someone’s personal data? Yes. While seemly small, removing the emoji is an instance of political censorship.

Sure but there is obviously a difference in the effect. Hiding an emoji is tiny, turning over all of someone’s files is much more intrusive, killing someone would be far worse again. To say they are the same seems deeply illogical.

> Hiding an emoji is tiny, turning over all of someone’s files is much more intrusive, killing someone would be far worse again.

I think you need to distinguish between actions against society and actions against an individual. Censorship is almost always an action against society; turning over files is sometimes against society but often just against an individual.

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#347

Post by djohnston »

chrischen wrote: post #336
ApolloFortyNine wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google did. Yea they want to head back (now that they realize nobody cared), but they pulled out of China entirely back in 2011 over censorship.

That was the public reason but i’ve also heard they simply could’t compete and decided to use that excuse to save face.

by couldn't compete, i assume you mean, "didn't want to hand over all their IP to CCP, who would in turn give it to the native competitor", right?

Re: Apple Hides Taiwan Flag in Hong Kong

#348

Post by nostrademons »

root_axis wrote: post #307
behnamoh wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if all engineers quit with the first immoral request by the management, it would actually pave way for more morally ignorant engineers to replace them. We only see what has happened, not what has not happened. What if the iOS engineers do in fact have moral values and have declined some of the management's more immoral requests many times, but this particular request seemed the lesser of two devils? Maybe those…

> it would actually pave way for more morally ignorant engineers to replace them All the more reason why they (the replacement) should be blamed. Obviously, those who might have refused to comply and were replaced made a moral stand and deserve commendation, not blame. > Maybe those engineers don't quit exactly because they want to hinder such actions by the management. Perhaps. There are a lot of hypothetical scenar…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SII-jhEd-a0#t=110
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