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The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

marketwatch.com

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Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#281

Post by noobermin »

analog31 wrote: post #128
noobermin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I'm ignorant, why can't they just make other parts? If you have a lathe and a machine shop, you can make other pieces of metal instead of the pieces of metal you currently make.

I've often heard a similar sentiment: "Why can't we just get everything 3-d printed?" The reason is that the specialized techniques often have cost and performance advantages, especially at higher production volumes, and can make use of materials that are better suited to the needs of the design. For instance, you could conceivably machine a spring from a piece of solid metal, but it would be quite expensive and woul…

That sentiment underplays the general knowledge (more important) as well as generalized tools that even specialized shops have. It's not like pivoting is easy, it never is. I just don't think every shop has to vanish versus pivoting and finding another lane that fits the new demand. A change in the market landscape doesn't need to spell the end of all shops as we know it.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#282

Post by blunte »

fzeroracer wrote: post #77
blunte wrote: post #4

One person’s right to keep a job is not greater than humanity’s right to reasonable progress. It’s cases like these that give unions a bad name.

Would you be willing to say the same thing were it your head on the proverbial chopping block? Would you be willing to lose your career, your only source of income and potentially more as a consequence, such as your home? Are you willing to right now, make the same sacrifice in the name of progress for humanity?

There has been plenty of advance warning that electric vehicles would overtake combustion engine vehicles in the near future. It has also been published that electric vehicles are simpler and require fewer parts and workers.

Also, the rise of robotics in factories has been visible and known for years.

These all add up to one thing: workers who don't plan ahead will lose their jobs. The farrier eventually lost his job when horses were replaced with cars. Would you argue that we should still have people making and attaching horseshoes in cities where nobody is riding horses?

[edit] But to answer your question, I would not be in this situation because I pay attention and learn new things to stay relevant. Come one, we're mostly software developers here: we're very familiar with having to learn new things to stay relevant (have jobs, get paid, eat). While the auto worker may possibly be less technical and perhaps less educated, they are not stupid. This argument that their jobs should be protected is just laziness (or they are being (mis)led and manipulated by some party with an agenda).

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#283

Post by plutonic »

danaris wrote: post #279
plutonic wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of Scott's post over at Slate Star Codex about Moloch [0]. The issue here isn't so much about _realizing_ the futility in pegging one's happiness to one's profitability. The issue is that for any one person to forgo this standard (s)he would be required to give up the status conferred on being a profit-generating American. This is against his/her interest. Thus, most Americans would rather work harder…

That's a fairly privileged take on it. Most Americans don't continue to work for status—they continue to work to eat.

> Most Americans don't continue to work for status—they continue to work to eat.

I was speaking with regards to American society under UBI, not the current day.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#284

Post by chillacy »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #152
chillacy wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People don't want "hand outs" or "charity", they want to do something to generate value Agreed that it will be a cultural shift: there is a divide between meaning and economics. People need meaning in life, but meaningful work and economic value aren't always the same. Raising children or providing caregiving to the elderly can be very meaningful and happens to pay poorly. Building community is incredibly meaningfu…

I think you'll have a much harder time convincing women to not base sexual selection, at least in part, on resource gathering. That's pretty ingrained, and not just culture.

Not sure I follow, what does this have to do with meaning and work?

And even in a post-scarcity society, some things (like attention and social status) will always be valuable.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#285

Post by chillacy »

thephyber wrote: post #92
chillacy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that until I tried teaching people programming a few times, it's hard work, and a lot of people don't find it enjoyable. Additionally I heard people who do well in code school have prior programming experience as well, so it becomes more about selection and refining skills than actually making new programmers.

I don't think the "hard work" excuse works when you are talking about people who used to work in coal mines and have a family to support. I think it's more likely that the basic math (algebra, geometry, etc) is missing when you look at men who started working in the mines before they finish high school. Without the math foundation, it's not "hard work", but a weak foundation which just causes frustration. That, and a…

Sorry I was unclear, I meant it was hard for me. And maybe part of it is that I'm not great at teaching.

I mainly taught a handful of college educated people who studied things like earth sciences, arts, and ocean science, but struggle to understand a for loop or a function call.

And now I understand how it can be un-fun to struggle, especially if you don't intrinsically enjoy writing scripts and mucking around the terminal.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#286

Post by toss1 »

Faark wrote: post #215
toss1 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The move motivated by Full Self Drive away from full-time ownership and towards robotaxis should indeed reduce the number of personally owned vehicles, but would it really reduce the number of vehicles? Instead of vehicles driving 150K miles over 11 years (~~ average car age now in US) a robotaxi could burn through 500 miles in a day or 500K miles in 2.7 years. They'd certainly need the interior replaced several time…

Robotaxis will quickly become highly durable (well, maintenance become cheap), since for the first time incentives mostly align. The car will be produced and maintained by the same one of few powerful corporations. The bigger problem will be aligning incentives with the customer. Especially regarding safety, since riders can hardly evaluate that by themself.

>>Especially regarding safety,

Yes, that's a big one, and indeed may be setting up a commons problem, if not strongly regulated.

For the short term, and for each individual company, cutting corners for safety will be in their interest (save funds now at no cost).

But for the industry and the long term, the entire concept could be destroyed by a relatively small but tragic number of safety failures. A few high-profile passenger deaths will probably be covered in the volume of terrorist attacks, and even if the actual risk is still small, give the impression of horrible widespread risk.

I'd like to hope that all the players are responsible and far-sighted, but the experience with Uber killing the cyclist in Arizona does not bode well -- they had many lapses and corner cutting, only reforming a bit when they killed someone.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#287

Post by Consultant32452 »

chillacy wrote: post #284
Consultant32452 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll have a much harder time convincing women to not base sexual selection, at least in part, on resource gathering. That's pretty ingrained, and not just culture.

Not sure I follow, what does this have to do with meaning and work? And even in a post-scarcity society, some things (like attention and social status) will always be valuable.

The whole discussion is built on a fantasy socialist utopia where the robots do all the work and we just issue everyone a paycheck to not work. Socialists have been singing this song since the beginning of socialism. It will never work because it doesn't match with human nature. Some kind of work must be found, and people will demand differential outcomes based on that work. People will destroy the robots before they let this socialist u/dys-topia come to fruition.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#288

Post by chillacy »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #287
chillacy wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow, what does this have to do with meaning and work? And even in a post-scarcity society, some things (like attention and social status) will always be valuable.

The whole discussion is built on a fantasy socialist utopia where the robots do all the work and we just issue everyone a paycheck to not work. Socialists have been singing this song since the beginning of socialism. It will never work because it doesn't match with human nature. Some kind of work must be found, and people will demand differential outcomes based on that work. People will destroy the robots before they…

Well people will always "work", but I think the nature of what we consider "work" and "outcomes" might be different.

In our current scenario "work" is generate economic value, and "outcome" is dollars.

In another scenario "work" could be stories / media, and "outcomes" could be attention.

In another, "work" is playing video games, "outcome" is level.

In all these scenarios you have people feeling the dopamine and at some level deriving satisfaction. It seems a bit dystopian (and anti-social) even to me, but if we're just talking about "human limitations on society" then I don't see why it couldn't be the case.

If we really lived in a post-scarcity world like The Culture, I'd imagine we'd have to evolve how we think about "work" and "outcome" in the same way that most of us no longer "work" for the glory of god for an "outcome" in the afterlife.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#289

Post by Consultant32452 »

chillacy wrote: post #288
Consultant32452 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole discussion is built on a fantasy socialist utopia where the robots do all the work and we just issue everyone a paycheck to not work. Socialists have been singing this song since the beginning of socialism. It will never work because it doesn't match with human nature. Some kind of work must be found, and people will demand differential outcomes based on that work. People will destroy the robots before they…

Well people will always "work", but I think the nature of what we consider "work" and "outcomes" might be different. In our current scenario "work" is generate economic value, and "outcome" is dollars. In another scenario "work" could be stories / media, and "outcomes" could be attention. In another, "work" is playing video games, "outcome" is level. In all these scenarios you have people feeling the dopamine and at…

>post-scarcity world

Well, we don't live in a fictional world. We live in a real world.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#290

Post by linksnapzz »

Article is dumb enough to barely qualify as clickbait.

GM (and almost everyone else) has structural overcapacity and fixed-cost issues that would be challenging to deal with, even if the market for electric cars went to zero this evening.

Losing money is losing money, and you can go bankrupt just as easily (even if you're losing less money per unit) making electric as you can making ICE vehicles.

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