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Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

nytimes.com

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Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#21

Post by khafra »

rimantas wrote: post #4
sushi wrote: post #2

This Ted talk by Sugata Mitra also talks about replacing teachers with machines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk60sYrU2RU The fast-food delivery of education must change now that we have better tools to impart education.

I'd say the tools are of the least importance there. Nevertheless, somehow we tend to think that most problems can be solved just by throwing technology at them.

The per user costs of technology reduce dramatically as the number of users enlarges; the cost of teachers scales linearly with the number of users. At present, society is not willing to pay enough to provide the average student with quality teachers; if an up-front investment in technology can better that standard--even at the cost of worse-than-usual products of the Florida school system for a few years--it's a net win for society.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#22

Post by absconditus »

dantheman wrote: post #16
rimantas wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say the tools are of the least importance there. Nevertheless, somehow we tend to think that most problems can be solved just by throwing technology at them.

Sometimes the only way to address problems with entrenched interests is to change the playing field, technology can serve this purpose. So instead of having to fight tons of battles against teachers unions, implements some technology that drastically weakens their position -- in this new landscape political battles can now be won. I of course think school vouchers is the end all be all of school reform since it allow…

I have yet to hear a convincing explanation of how technology is the answer to our education problems.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#24

Post by adolph »

The submission title is inaccurate. Some schools are augmenting their workforce with technology due to unfunded legal requirements, see key quotes below.

Under the state’s class-reduction amendment, high school classrooms cannot surpass a 25-student limit in core subjects, like English or math. Fourth- through eighth-grade classrooms can have no more than 22 students, and prekindergarten through third grade can have no more than 18.

School administrators said that they had to find a way to meet class-size limits. Jodi Robins, the assistant principal of curriculum at Miami Beach High, said that even if students struggled in certain subjects, the virtual labs were necessary because “there’s no way to beat the class-size mandate without it.”

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#25

Post by evgen »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #19
evgen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He can't really provide the evidence because it does not exist in any meaningful manner. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that reduced class sizes lead to better overall student performance and that smaller classes have a disproportionately large effect when used in disadvantaged/urban schools and when used very early (e.g. K-2nd grade.)

If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it? The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming. At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes…

Since "google it" seems to be the alpha and omega of your research abilities, here are some papers and research from the last five years that supports the case that smaller class sizes leads to better student outcomes when applied to K-6 education (as in long-term quantitative results and not just "student satisfaction"):

Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Achievement Gap? Evidence from the Lasting Benefits Study, American Journal of Education 116, November 2009.

Peter Muennig and Steven H. Woolf, Health and Economic Benefits of Reducing the Number of Students per Classroom in US Primary Schools, American Journal of Public Health,  published online September 27, 2007. 

Philip Babcock and Julian R. Betts, Reduced-class Distinctions: Effort, Ability and the Education Production Function, NBER Working paper 14777, March 2009. 

Sarah Theule Lubienski et.al., Achievement Differences and School Type: The Role of School Climate, Teacher Certification, and Instruction, American Journal of Education 115, November 2008.

Elizabeth Graue, et.al. The Wisdom of Class-Size Reduction, American Educational Research Journal, September 2007, Vol. 44, No. 3. 

Douglas D. Ready and Valerie E. Lee, Optimal Context Size in Elementary Schools: Disentangling the Effects of Class Size and School Size, Brookings Papers on Education Policy, 2006/2007, pp. 99-135. 

Fatih Unlu, California Class Size Reduction Reform: New Findings from the NAEP, Princeton Univ., Nov. 2005

Jeremy D. Finn et.al., Small Classes in the Early Grades, Academic Achievement, and Graduating From High School,  Journal of Educational Psychology, 2005.

The best that the opponents of initiatives to reduce class sizes can muster are exemplified the recent efforts by anti-tax groups to fight Amendment 9 in Florida (see http://floridataxwatch.org/archive/amendment9.html for an example) where there is a a great deal of political weaseling to try to minimize the available data. No studies are presented that show that reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect and a lot of words are spent trying to spin the results that are available.

We are not talking about college-level instruction and you know that. The attempt to claim that research on college pedagogy is in any way applicable to elementary education is poor sophistry at best. To return the favor, how about you start listing some studies that show that reduced class sizes in K-6 have no long-terms effects on student outcome?

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#26

Post by yequalsx »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #20
yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence that class size doesn't matter? It seems intuitively obvious that class size does matter. Consider a single teacher teaching 60,000 average students in a stadium sized classroom versus a single teacher in a classroom with 20 average students. It seems to me that the probability of success in the latter classroom would be significantly higher than in the former. I don't know this to be true but it…

Patrick is focusing on class size variations typically encountered in the real world (typically 0-40). You are focusing on class size variation in a world populated by straw men (0-60,000).

I guess this is an implicit admission on your part that class size matters. Very good. I agree with you.

At most large universities freshman and sophomore classes can be found in the hundreds. (They typically come with recitation but these are usually glorified tutoring sessions.) At my college class sizes in the department of mathematics run at 45. Typical depends on what institution you are talking about.

Given that class size matters it becomes a relevant topic on what the optimal size is. He made the statement with regard to class size:

" They do little, if anything, for education."

This is clearly not the case.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#27

Post by yummyfajitas »

evgen wrote: post #25
yummyfajitas wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it? The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming. At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes…

Since "google it" seems to be the alpha and omega of your research abilities, here are some papers and research from the last five years that supports the case that smaller class sizes leads to better student outcomes when applied to K-6 education (as in long-term quantitative results and not just "student satisfaction"): Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Ac…

Look, I don't claim to be an expert. I was just asking you to cite some of the voluminous research you claimed existed, and pointing out that the case seems far from clear. I just cited the first two on-point google results, one of which was about grade 1. Also, no one is claiming reduced class sizes have a detrimental effect. The claim is that their effect is small and probably not cost effective.

Now, on to your citations. Your first paper (Konstantantopoulos and Chun) agrees with me. It shows an achievement gain is 0.04-0.1 standard deviations, decreasing with time (they don't even bother to look past grade 8). The increase in cost is 66% (reducing class size from 25 to 15).

Graduation probabilities are also increased by 3% (for students not receiving a free lunch) to 18% (for students receiving a free lunch), after 4 years of small class size (according to the Finn paper). So far, the only effect that seems significant is the graduation probability for students receiving a free lunch (assuming this particular effect is real, rather than just data mining).

(Note: several of your other studies don't even try to address the claim that lower class sizes improve student achievement. Your paper by Woolf and Muennig is just an advocacy piece, assuming that education is the cause of all good things and arguing that we need more of it. )

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#28

Post by Alex3917 »

evgen wrote: post #25
yummyfajitas wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it? The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming. At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes…

Since "google it" seems to be the alpha and omega of your research abilities, here are some papers and research from the last five years that supports the case that smaller class sizes leads to better student outcomes when applied to K-6 education (as in long-term quantitative results and not just "student satisfaction"): Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Ac…

"The most often cited research o this matter was conducted by Gene Glass and Mary Lee Smith. [...] Several features of the resulting curve stand out. First, for class sizes in the range of twenty to forty students, the effects are minimal. Second, significant improvement in student achievement does not occur until class sizes are in the range of fifteen students or below.[1]

[...]

The immense costs make classes smaller than 15 utterly out of the question. In 1986, for example, a reduction of the national average for regularly convened classes from 24 to 23 pupils would have required almost 73,000 more teachers and 5 billion additional dollars, not counting the expenses of building more classrooms. Reducing the average class to 20 students would require over 335,000 more teachers at an added $22.8 billion. At 15 students, 1 million extra classroom teachers would be needed and added costs close to $69 billion."

[1] Riordan notes that there were some problems with this study, but that despite these problems later research has validated the original curve.

source: Equality And Achievement by Cornelius Riordan, p. 164

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#29

Post by [deleted] »

evgen wrote: post #25
yummyfajitas wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it? The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming. At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes…

Since "google it" seems to be the alpha and omega of your research abilities, here are some papers and research from the last five years that supports the case that smaller class sizes leads to better student outcomes when applied to K-6 education (as in long-term quantitative results and not just "student satisfaction"): Spyros Konstantopoulos and Vicki Chun, What Are the Long-Term Effects of Small Classes on the Ac…

[deleted]

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#30

Post by rbanffy »

Because in Soviet Florida, computer programs you.

Sorry. I could not resist.

Now, on a more serious tone, if this is a cost-cutting measure, why not embrace the XO as a learning aid? It certainly cost very little and can be packed with mountains of learning material, much more than it would be cost-effective to print and ship to schools. Plus, contrarily to the Dells pictured in the text, students can carry them everywhere and the energy cost of operating them must be smaller than the cost of operating those CRTs alone.

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