Florida schools replacing teachers with computers • Hacker News Board

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#11

Post by snewman » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

It's easy to throw out opinions about this sort of thing -- "computers are no replacement for a real teacher", "the class size constraint should be relaxed", "if done well, computerized education could be a huge step forward". But without hard data about the situation in question -- details of how the program is implemented, measured outcomes from previous uses of the same courseware, etc. -- the discussion isn't very productive. The NYTimes article is disappointing in that respect: it provides little or none of the information that would help us decide whether the Florida program is a sensible adaptation to limited resources, or a sad pretense.

I've seen plenty of examples of computers in the classroom doing little good, and even doing harm (mostly in the form of distraction). In the long run, I'm optimistic that computers can revolutionize education; in the short run, I'm pessimistic about most of the efforts going on. This article doesn't tell us anything about which category the Florida program falls into; without more data or context, there's not much point in debating it.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#12

Post by yequalsx » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:00 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #6

Class-size limits are an artificial constraint which were introduced because they occupy that happy space in the middle of the Venn diagram between "sounds good to voters" and "does something teachers unions actually care about." They do little, if anything, for education. You could solve this problem in an afternoon if you wanted to -- repeal class size limits, done. That will only actually happen if there is a seve…

Do you have evidence that class size doesn't matter? It seems intuitively obvious that class size does matter. Consider a single teacher teaching 60,000 average students in a stadium sized classroom versus a single teacher in a classroom with 20 average students. It seems to me that the probability of success in the latter classroom would be significantly higher than in the former. I don't know this to be true but it seems like it should be true. I'd be interested in knowing if there is research supporting your position.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#13

Post by oiuhjyftgrdgh » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:00 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #6

Class-size limits are an artificial constraint which were introduced because they occupy that happy space in the middle of the Venn diagram between "sounds good to voters" and "does something teachers unions actually care about." They do little, if anything, for education. You could solve this problem in an afternoon if you wanted to -- repeal class size limits, done. That will only actually happen if there is a seve…

In my day it was educational TV programs that were going to save us. For anybody old enough to remember Vax it was probably educational film strips.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#14

Post by michaelbuckbee » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:02 PM UTC

There was a really interesting Freakonomics Podcast about NYC's "School of One" program that is a good counterpoint to what it looks like is happening in Florida.

They take an algorithmic approach to try to determine what learning style works best for a kid and continuously test for learning retention and how quickly new skills are gained.

http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/freakonomic...

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#15

Post by evgen » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:10 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

patio11 wrote: post #6

Class-size limits are an artificial constraint which were introduced because they occupy that happy space in the middle of the Venn diagram between "sounds good to voters" and "does something teachers unions actually care about." They do little, if anything, for education. You could solve this problem in an afternoon if you wanted to -- repeal class size limits, done. That will only actually happen if there is a seve…

Do you have evidence that class size doesn't matter? It seems intuitively obvious that class size does matter. Consider a single teacher teaching 60,000 average students in a stadium sized classroom versus a single teacher in a classroom with 20 average students. It seems to me that the probability of success in the latter classroom would be significantly higher than in the former. I don't know this to be true but it…

He can't really provide the evidence because it does not exist in any meaningful manner. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that reduced class sizes lead to better overall student performance and that smaller classes have a disproportionately large effect when used in disadvantaged/urban schools and when used very early (e.g. K-2nd grade.)

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#16

Post by dantheman » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:27 PM UTC

rimantas wrote: post #4

sushi wrote: post #2

This Ted talk by Sugata Mitra also talks about replacing teachers with machines. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk60sYrU2RU The fast-food delivery of education must change now that we have better tools to impart education.

I'd say the tools are of the least importance there. Nevertheless, somehow we tend to think that most problems can be solved just by throwing technology at them.

Sometimes the only way to address problems with entrenched interests is to change the playing field, technology can serve this purpose. So instead of having to fight tons of battles against teachers unions, implements some technology that drastically weakens their position -- in this new landscape political battles can now be won.

I of course think school vouchers is the end all be all of school reform since it allows anyone to open a school and to compete with any ideas that they think might win...

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#17

Post by luu » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:31 PM UTC

evgen wrote: post #15

yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence that class size doesn't matter? It seems intuitively obvious that class size does matter. Consider a single teacher teaching 60,000 average students in a stadium sized classroom versus a single teacher in a classroom with 20 average students. It seems to me that the probability of success in the latter classroom would be significantly higher than in the former. I don't know this to be true but it…

He can't really provide the evidence because it does not exist in any meaningful manner. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that reduced class sizes lead to better overall student performance and that smaller classes have a disproportionately large effect when used in disadvantaged/urban schools and when used very early (e.g. K-2nd grade.)

It’s not nearly as clear as you make it out to be. Of the randomized controlled trials that I know of [1], one study has shown that reducing class size from 25 to 15 has a large positive effect, but another has shown that reducing class size from 40 to 30 has no effect. Also, assigning a teacher’s aide, so that a class of 50 is taught by two people also has no effect. The problem is that such studies are expensive and hard to generalize. Is it really that going from 25 to 15 always has an effect and that going from 40 to 30 never does, or was there something about the particular circumstances of those trials that made class size matter in one case and not the other?

Another problem is that even if reducing class size is effective is that, in the short run, there’s a fixed supply of good teachers. This isn’t a problem when you’re running an RCT on a few schools, but if you want to initiate state-wide (or nation-wide) reform, it’s not clear that throwing a bunch of unqualified teachers into small classrooms will help.

[1]Hacsi’s Children as Pawns: The Politics of Educational Reform has a good summary of evidence to date, as of 2003

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#18

Post by fakespastic » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:36 PM UTC

What a terrible idea.

I'm sorry, I know this sounds very low-tech of me, but high-school aged kids need an authority figure, who is clearly in charge, teaching them material. Lecturing in-person. Building relationships. I, for one, even at my age, cannot long burden myself with CBT. People just don't take it seriously enough. Let's face the reality of humanity: we are what robots will ultimately become, and some things are just better between humans than between a human and a computer.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#19

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:45 PM UTC

evgen wrote: post #15

yequalsx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have evidence that class size doesn't matter? It seems intuitively obvious that class size does matter. Consider a single teacher teaching 60,000 average students in a stadium sized classroom versus a single teacher in a classroom with 20 average students. It seems to me that the probability of success in the latter classroom would be significantly higher than in the former. I don't know this to be true but it…

He can't really provide the evidence because it does not exist in any meaningful manner. There is an overwhelming amount of data showing that reduced class sizes lead to better overall student performance and that smaller classes have a disproportionately large effect when used in disadvantaged/urban schools and when used very early (e.g. K-2nd grade.)

If the data is overwhelming, how come you don't cite any of it?

The first few google results that address this point [1] seem to disagree with your claim that the data is overwhelming.

At the college level at least, student performance is unaffected by class size: http://sigmaa.maa.org/rume/crume2010/Archive/Gleason.pdf

In french grades 1-2, teacher education and class size (variation of 10 students) affects outcomes by only 3%, which they claim is statistically significant: http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/international/events/upload/Prost...

But I'm no expert. If you have data, can you cite it? Because a quick google search suggests patrick is right and you are wrong.

[1] A few of the studies at the top of google results don't address student performance, but instead focus on student satisfaction.

Re: Florida schools replacing teachers with computers

#20

Post by yummyfajitas » Tue, Jan 18, 2011, 7:51 PM UTC

yequalsx wrote: post #12

patio11 wrote: post #6

Class-size limits are an artificial constraint which were introduced because they occupy that happy space in the middle of the Venn diagram between "sounds good to voters" and "does something teachers unions actually care about." They do little, if anything, for education. You could solve this problem in an afternoon if you wanted to -- repeal class size limits, done. That will only actually happen if there is a seve…

Do you have evidence that class size doesn't matter? It seems intuitively obvious that class size does matter. Consider a single teacher teaching 60,000 average students in a stadium sized classroom versus a single teacher in a classroom with 20 average students. It seems to me that the probability of success in the latter classroom would be significantly higher than in the former. I don't know this to be true but it…

Patrick is focusing on class size variations typically encountered in the real world (typically 0-40). You are focusing on class size variation in a world populated by straw men (0-60,000).