Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#251

Post by mulcahey » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #227

zaroth wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the Tesla Model 3 aesthetically beautiful, and other cars rather grotesque in comparison. It’s extremely forward thinking and intelligent design, allowing for the user experience to constantly improve and be enhanced with the regular software updates to come down. There are now dozens of features in my car which didn’t even exist when I bought it. UI refinements actually improve my driving experience one month…

Counterpoint, as a Model 3 owner. The lack of tactile controls for things like climate controls, sound system, etc., is very frustrating. I find myself having to mess around with the touchscreen much more than I'd like while driving. You get used to the central screen in lieu of a traditional dashboard pretty quickly, but I'd prefer more traditional dashboard functions to be aligned to display(s) on the driver's side…

You can buy a key fob from Tesla that supports passive entry

https://shop.tesla.com/product/model-3-key-fob

Personally, I am sticking with the phone, and I think that’s true for most people.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#252

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:22 PM UTC

charlesdm wrote: post #165

socialdemocrat wrote: post #145

Tesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leaf…

In all honesty, it only sells well because of the tax benefits. Do the actual math and then figure out how many people would then buy and use it. Likely not a lot.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#253

Post by woodandsteel » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:25 PM UTC

free652 wrote: post #184

cj wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

>Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC)

Is that 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#254

Post by free652 » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:40 PM UTC

woodandsteel wrote: post #253

free652 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

>Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC) Is that 24 hours a day, 7 days a week?

That's the same rate from ConEd. It's actually more like like 27c or 28c. 9c for electricity, 13c or more for delivery and rest taxes. I paid $370 for like 1350kwh last July, I switched to solar last August and that will pay itself in about 5 years.

There are TOU rates, but there are from 8am to midnight.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#255

Post by simonebrunozzi » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 8:42 PM UTC

jansan wrote: post #222

cloudwalking wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Model 3 appears to be the #6 best selling car in USA last quarter* and I don't believe there is much of any USA tax incentive anymore. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/10/06/tesla-model-3-6th-best-...

Keep in mind that the best selling passenger vehicles are not called "car" in the US statistics, but "light trucks". The number of light trucks sold in September 2019 is almost three times the number of "passenger cars". https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/salesfig...

I can't find the right reference, but I remember that such "light trucks" (e.g. Ford F150) enjoy a different tax and tariff compared to cars, and that's why several car companies have pushed them to the market.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#256

Post by jillesvangurp » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

antepodius wrote: post #190

jillesvangurp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because despite the low gas prices, solar and wind prices are trending down as efficiencies increase and as economies of scale improve the economics. Prices are already dipping below those prices for new bids. So, if you are planning a gas plant that needs to be operational for decades, the economic outlook is pretty grim. That's why lots of plans for new gas plans are getting shelved. Existing plants run quite econo…

None of this adresses the storage problem. Unless/until storage gets a lot cheapet, there are going to be baseline/peaker fossil/nuclear plants. (No peaker nuclear, ofc.)

Storage is typically included in those low bids I mentioned. We already crossed the cheap enough mark in some areas for solar + battery.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#257

Post by V_Terranova_Jr » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

mulcahey wrote: post #251

V_Terranova_Jr wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint, as a Model 3 owner. The lack of tactile controls for things like climate controls, sound system, etc., is very frustrating. I find myself having to mess around with the touchscreen much more than I'd like while driving. You get used to the central screen in lieu of a traditional dashboard pretty quickly, but I'd prefer more traditional dashboard functions to be aligned to display(s) on the driver's side…

You can buy a key fob from Tesla that supports passive entry https://shop.tesla.com/product/model-3-key-fob Personally, I am sticking with the phone, and I think that’s true for most people.

Cool, thanks! I hadn't spent any time researching options to deal with this issue yet, so take this message as tempering that line of criticism.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#258

Post by jillesvangurp » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #197

jillesvangurp wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because despite the low gas prices, solar and wind prices are trending down as efficiencies increase and as economies of scale improve the economics. Prices are already dipping below those prices for new bids. So, if you are planning a gas plant that needs to be operational for decades, the economic outlook is pretty grim. That's why lots of plans for new gas plans are getting shelved. Existing plants run quite econo…

Solar/wind doesn’t compete with gas because it cannot provide dependable base load. Solar/wind + massive energy storage is what competes with gas. And in that category it’s not even close to competitive because batteries are still way too expensive.

I keep hearing this. How many twh do you think you need and why? And how much are you willing to pay for it? The sun comes out every day. On a bad day there are clouds and your panels are less effective but still produce power (except in the arctic regions). Wind blows every day somewhere but not necessarily everywhere. Well known facts. However, continent wide black clouds without any wind whatsoever is pretty rare and unlikely to last very long if it happens at all. So instead of storing energy locally, you can absorb a lot of this by moving energy around via wires.

So, you need batteries locally for fluctuations and you can cross connect sites with wires so you can import excess energy from elsewhere. Conveniently when it is cloudy, it's usually also pretty windy. Global warming is oddly helping here by creating even more wind.

So, a combination of a some over capacity, some wires for moving energy around, and some battery for short term fluctuations would be all you need. If it's not enough on the worst days, just add more windmills/solar/batteries. At the rate prices are dropping installing 2-3x the needed capacity would still be cheaper than keeping gas plants around. Those prices are projected to continue to drop of course making the whole thing only even more affordable.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#259

Post by tyfon » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

Dumblydorr wrote: post #162

xyzzyz wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gasoline burns very cleanly in modern (that is, Compared to those two, though, coal power plants are dirty as hell, and I’d take equivalent amount of car emissions to generate the same power over coal any day.

I code at a hospital, which is in a poor neighborhood. The garbage exhaust on my walk in to work from cheap old cars is unbelievable, to say nothing of 18 wheelers and huge trucks rolling through this poor neighboring neighborhood all day. Kids living there are straight up taking lung and brain damage from that exhaust. So it does grind my gears when people talk about coal EVs being dirtier, they just dont think of p…

Also when it's cold outside the "clean" engines are really dirty as the catalytic converter do almost nothing at low temperatures.

"One of its biggest shortcomings is that it only works at a fairly high temperature. When you start your car cold, the catalytic converter does almost nothing to reduce the pollution in your exhaust." [1]

And when it's cold the car usually starts at someone home around where other people live and that's where the pollution ends up.

For diesel engines that operate at lower temperatures this is even worse.

[1] https://auto.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter3.htm

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#260

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 9:21 PM UTC

As soon as the tax situation normalizes this will drop back down again. There is simply a limited time for people to act and get the full benefit of buying an electric vehicle. This situation happens over and over again in different places in the world whenever a particular tax advantage is about to end.