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Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

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Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#181

Post by Someone »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #146
ralusek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't running an internal combustion engine in a car still substantially less efficient than the power plant necessary to charge it, regardless of the fuel?

ICE engines are around 20% efficiency I think, while e.g. a gas turbine in a power plant is around 60%. Very little efficiency is lost in transmission cables and in the electric motor, so it is definitely a lot more efficient to use electric cars as a way of burning fossil fuels. Not to mention that coal plants and gas power plants can be changed to burn biomass or do gasification of biomass. That allows us to avoid…

”Very little efficiency is lost in transmission cables and in the electric motor”

It’s not that clear-cut. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_energy_efficiency:

”Taking the conversion factor of 2.58 in France into account (see Embodied energy#Electricity), we would find an efficiency of about 0.5/2.58 or 19 %, which corresponds to the order of magnitude of the balance of the combustion vehicles, according to the diagram of the Department of energy (where the efficiency of combustion vehicles is less than 20%). By the way, according to the French energy agency (ADEME), the primary energy consumption of electric vehicles and combustion-powered ones would be approximately equivalent”

I think that even ignores the higher weight of electric cars. Because of that, I think it’s better for the world to buy a small ICE than to buy a Tesla (for the local environment, things are different)

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#182

Post by ryanSrich »

socialdemocrat wrote: post #145

Tesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leaf…

Well, price also holds people back. An entry level Tesla with autopilot is still north of $40k after taxes (even with the break).

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#183

Post by oldandboring »

dogma1138 wrote: post #157
4gotunameagain wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a car, and an expensive one. Very few people would base their decision only on the tax incentives.

I don’t think you realize how much cars cost in Norway the country has an effective tax rate on cars that is over 100%. A new Ford Focus with all taxes and fees will cost you around $50,000, the base model without fees alone starts at around $35,000 (320,000 NOK). That’s a $12-13K car in the US, a Tesla on the otherhand might cost you even lower than the US sticker price under some circumstances, especially on the of…

The 2018 Focus had a starting MSRP around $17.5k. I'm not really sure what they actually listed for at dealerships and I'm having a hard time finding info on the 2019 Focus being sold in the US. But, yeah obviously this is a much less expensive car in the US. $50k for a compact is ridiculous.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#184

Post by free652 »

cj wrote: post #159
xyzzyz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency).

City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c.

Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#185

Post by helpPeople »

zaroth wrote: post #130
TicklishTiger wrote: post #7

The one thing I really can not get over with Tesla is the dashboard. That giant screen that looks so misplaced. Cars always used to be the pinnacle of thought out design. And Tesla is supposed to be catering the more stylish crowd I think. I wonder how they decided to place a standard screen to the right of the driver. It will be interesting to see if other car manufacturers will adopt this design decision. Then it w…

I find the Tesla Model 3 aesthetically beautiful, and other cars rather grotesque in comparison. It’s extremely forward thinking and intelligent design, allowing for the user experience to constantly improve and be enhanced with the regular software updates to come down. There are now dozens of features in my car which didn’t even exist when I bought it. UI refinements actually improve my driving experience one month…

This is one of those things that you can't trust a customer to answer truthfully.

You say you like it, but when Ford or similar does it, it's annoying.

It's not that Tesla quality is good either.

It's one of those things that we tell ourselves we like.

I believe there isn't a correct answer, but rather our psychology decides what we like rather than true performance

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#186

Post by toomuchtodo »

free652 wrote: post #184
cj wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

Hybrids are being phased out (as Chevy did with the Volt).

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#187

Post by toomuchtodo »

ryanSrich wrote: post #182
socialdemocrat wrote: post #145

Tesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leaf…

Well, price also holds people back. An entry level Tesla with autopilot is still north of $40k after taxes (even with the break).

Average price of a new car in the US is $37k. 17 million new cars a year sold in the US. Price isn’t as big of an issue as it’s made to be. If you can’t afford a Tesla, you probably should only be looking at affordable used cars anyway (like a Toyota or Honda for $10k-$20k).

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#188

Post by btbuilder »

free652 wrote: post #184
cj wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

Chevy Bolt has very workable range. ~230 EPA

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#189

Post by yumraj »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #186
free652 wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

Hybrids are being phased out (as Chevy did with the Volt).

Prius are doing just fine, so are Honda hybrids, especially plug-ins

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#190

Post by antepodius »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #101
mxschumacher wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think gas plants will be turned off, especially given the low gas prices?

Because despite the low gas prices, solar and wind prices are trending down as efficiencies increase and as economies of scale improve the economics. Prices are already dipping below those prices for new bids. So, if you are planning a gas plant that needs to be operational for decades, the economic outlook is pretty grim. That's why lots of plans for new gas plans are getting shelved. Existing plants run quite econo…

None of this adresses the storage problem. Unless/until storage gets a lot cheapet, there are going to be baseline/peaker fossil/nuclear plants. (No peaker nuclear, ofc.)
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