Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands • Hacker News Board

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#151

Post by socialdemocrat » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #102

_ph_ wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For all the downvoters: powered by the average German grid, a Tesla emits about 75g CO2/100km. Please show me any combustion engined vehicle that comes even close to those numbers. Of course the "emissions" of the electric cars can only get better from there.

When you add load to a grid that's in the process of decarbonizing, you need to look at the marginal impact. Taking the average energy mix is bad math, because you're delaying the shutdown of the dirtiest sources. This can get more complicated if you have excess renewable energy generation at times, where the use is essentially free. Not to mention demand dispatch to smooth intermittent renewables. I'm a big EV fan,…

If you look at marginal impact then BEVs have no emissions, because generating capacity is primarily growing in the renewable energy segment.

In fact there is an even bigger benefits to BEVs: New BEVs are being made to allow sending current the opposite direction. Hence the BEV fleet can be used as a large battery for storing renewable in times of overproduction and selling it back when it is needed.

In other words adopting renewable energy REQUIRES BEVs.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#152

Post by socialdemocrat » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:42 PM UTC

reitzensteinm wrote: post #140

_ph_ wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mix is the right math. After all, you cannot say, which electric device uses which power source. Or suddenly it might be your TV running on pure coal energy - this does not make much sense. The best approximation is, that you apply the average energy mix. Which might be even too pessimistic, as not only a lot of people do power their electric cars with their own solar energy but also it is easy to charge your ele…

The question that needs to be answered is, what is the marginal impact of taking an ICE off the road and replacing it with a BEV? Using the current mix of renewables is a form of double counting. No more renewable energy is being fed in to the grid, however more is coming from dirty sources. Reductio ad absurdum, what happens if all of Germany's cars were BEV overnight? I've seen estimates that the load on the grid w…

At the margins Germany is primarily adding solar and wind. And this solar and wind benefits from having BEVs which can suck up excess production when needed.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#153

Post by xyzzyz » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:43 PM UTC

Faark wrote: post #108

ralusek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't running an internal combustion engine in a car still substantially less efficient than the power plant necessary to charge it, regardless of the fuel?

Not just that, ICE cars emit their shitty exhaust right where lots of people live. Things are generally more complex than breaking it down to a single CO2 number make it appear, and I'm a bit uneasy that recent trend.

Gasoline burns very cleanly in modern (that is, Compared to those two, though, coal power plants are dirty as hell, and I’d take equivalent amount of car emissions to generate the same power over coal any day.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#154

Post by rlpb » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

socialdemocrat wrote: post #146

ralusek wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't running an internal combustion engine in a car still substantially less efficient than the power plant necessary to charge it, regardless of the fuel?

ICE engines are around 20% efficiency I think, while e.g. a gas turbine in a power plant is around 60%. Very little efficiency is lost in transmission cables and in the electric motor, so it is definitely a lot more efficient to use electric cars as a way of burning fossil fuels. Not to mention that coal plants and gas power plants can be changed to burn biomass or do gasification of biomass. That allows us to avoid…

You also have to consider the efficiency of the battery of an electric vehicle, though it may well still turn out to be more efficient as you claim.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#155

Post by 4gotunameagain » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:44 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #150

socialdemocrat wrote: post #145

Tesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leaf…

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

It's a car, and an expensive one. Very few people would base their decision only on the tax incentives.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#156

Post by socialdemocrat » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

playing_colours wrote: post #103

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is a very densely populated country (go take a look at map). Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Germany also does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly. Currently, nuclear does not look like the sane option for Germany.

We do not have unquestionable alternatives to nuclear in Germany for generating electricity to power an industrial country on a stable rate. The demand for power will additionally grow with adoption of electric cars. For densely populated industrial country in Germany’s climate zone using renewables can be disasterous - we already pay too much for electricity, wind and solar panels are space-inefficient, we does not…

It makes a lot more sense to build gas power plants as a stop gap measure. Built them to support gasification of biomass. Thus you can due feel them with natural gas or biomass as needed. This is much faster to get going and cheaper than nuclear.

With nuclear you spend such an enormous amount of money building it, that there is not going back on the decision afterwards. Nuclear power plants are having enormous cost overruns and they keep the project going because they don't want tens of billions of euros to be for nothing.

I'd say build gas power plants to buy some time to get the grid working better. Some coal plants can be converted to biomass plants.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#157

Post by dogma1138 » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

4gotunameagain wrote: post #155

xyzzyz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

It's a car, and an expensive one. Very few people would base their decision only on the tax incentives.

I don’t think you realize how much cars cost in Norway the country has an effective tax rate on cars that is over 100%.

A new Ford Focus with all taxes and fees will cost you around $50,000, the base model without fees alone starts at around $35,000 (320,000 NOK).

That’s a $12-13K car in the US, a Tesla on the otherhand might cost you even lower than the US sticker price under some circumstances, especially on the officially refurbished ones.

Add other benefits on top of that and the fact that petrol in Norway costs $7 per gallon, money is the pretty much the only reason why people buy Tesla’s and other EVs at such high rates in Norway.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#158

Post by ddalex » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:50 PM UTC

4gotunameagain wrote: post #155

xyzzyz wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

It's a car, and an expensive one. Very few people would base their decision only on the tax incentives.

The Norway new car tax is above 100% for ICEs. So you can either buy a 30k ICE or 60k Tesla (which is taxed 0%), and get a lot more value for your money - in addition to that you have free parking in the cities too for electrics.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#159

Post by cj » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:51 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #150

socialdemocrat wrote: post #145

Tesla is almost 25% of the sales in Norway. Counting Tesla's on the road has started to become a bit silly. Just walking up to my local grocery story in Oslo, I may see 6-7 Tesla's on that short walk. I only realize how abnormal that is when it is when I travel abroad. Spent several days in London and didn't see a single Tesla. Spent a week in Spain and didn't even see an electric car at all. In Norway there are Leaf…

That’s no surprise, since Norwegian government heavily penalizes ICE vehicles, and advantages the electric cars. No VAT, no CO2 tax, and lots of other incentives are involved. If your goal is to upgrade your country’s vehicle fleet to electric, then Norway is a good example that with enough government spending it can happen. Don’t mistake it for “normal people jumping onboard electric train”, though, they are jumping…

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA.

If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric.

In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger.

(That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#160

Post by avar » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 2:53 PM UTC

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #126

fjfaase wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. Thus in that respect they are as poluting. The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now.

> An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. You are confusing this with emissions during production. My point is about emissions at the location of a car's use. > The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. If this w…

> Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust.

QUOTE

Traffic related particles can be distinguished into: exhaust traffic related particles, which are emitted as a result of incomplete fuel combustion and lubricant volatilization during the combustion procedure, and nonexhaust traffic related particles, which are either generated from non-exhaust traffic related sources such as brake, tyre, clutch and road surface wear or already exist in the environment as deposited material and become resuspended due to traffic induced turbulence.

It is estimated that exhaust and non-exhaust sources contribute almost equally to total traffic-related PM10 emissions. However, as exhaust emissions control become stricter, relative contributions of non-exhaust sources to traffic related emissions will increasingly become more significant.

END QUOTE

Source: http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JR...