An Update to Our Community and an Apology • Hacker News Board

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#251

Post by reccanti » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:32 AM UTC

automatoney wrote: post #241

asdjlkadsjklads wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes i consider myself lucky that i don't know anyone seeking special pronouns - because i imagine i would repeatedly use what i visually see, not what they request. These days i seek to find a gender neutral word i can get into the habit of using (it, or they, or something similar) , for fear of mis-nouning someone. Though, i also have the fear that if i use something neutral, when someone requested a specific…

I've never thought about how changing social norms affect people on the spectrum, but it definitely seems like it would be a lot harder to get pronouns right. In my experience with trans friends, pronoun misuse would just come with a gentle reminder, and if you want, mentioning you have trouble with social norms should give you more leeway. In many left-leaning circles awareness of gender, disability and other things…

I don’t want to discount any of your points because it can be difficult to navigate social situations. I just also want to mention that there are also trans people who are on the spectrum, and they have to navigate situations where they need to correct others about their pronouns and assert their identity. It’s not a simple “one or the other” situation.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#252

Post by MauranKilom » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:33 AM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #235

Causality1 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that was the issue. The moderator in question, as best as I've been able to ascertain, decided to avoid gendered pronouns entirely and in doing so violated the rules.

So someone got sacked for using a person's name instead of a pronoun?

No, it's far away from being that simple, and probably too complicated to summarize in a single sentence. For starters, the discussion was about a future CoC change and its theoretical enforcement. The actual allegation is repeated violation of the current CoC, but no warning regarding that was ever handed out. Nobody (not even the mod in question) has been told the exact violation, despite repeated queries.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#253

Post by humanrebar » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:36 AM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #40

This is sad, but I feel it was an inevitable consequence of allowing religion-orientated stackexchanges to be created in the first place. It's practically inviting a holy war. The people running them would likely be those who care deeply about doctrine, and the chances of a headlong collision over LGBT doctrine were always high.

Yes. It's definitely better if religious people stay closeted and pass as agnostic in public. Being welcoming or officially tolerant of them is clearly too much work to be worth it. I don't see what's in it for me anyway.

Before anyone gets offended, my Granny is religious, so I'm not bigoted or anything.

__The above is ironic to hopefully get the point across succinctly and with impact. A dry explanation wouldn't work in the same way. Or maybe not with my writing skills anyway.__

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#254

Post by detaro » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:36 AM UTC

NOGDP wrote: post #246

reccanti wrote: post #209

Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…

This kind of comment is what makes discussion difficult. You're just alluding to some kind of indecent opinions which offend(?) you, without pointing out anything specifically. I have no idea what you're talking about. All I gleamed from your comment is that 'someone' is responding in some unspecified way which you don't like, and you follow that up with a strawman about 'caricatures' which I have not seen in this th…

"And my preferred pronoun this week is blergl." is very much a caricature and variations of it have been made a few times.

As is "Using the wrong gender is enough to cause someone to commit suicide?" when it's pointed out that doing so is part of the pattern they're often harassed with.

EDIT: edited, see below

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#255

Post by lesstenseflow » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:37 AM UTC

Reading some of Monica’s commentary on this, it pains me to conclude that she doesn’t know just how bad the situation is. She appears to have approached the issue in question respectfully and highlighted her concerns diplomatically, and she believes there must be a “big misunderstanding” because of the extreme response with which she was met. Surely all parties are interested in reaching an outcome everyone can live with, right? Wrong.

The reason her questions and were met with summary punishment was due to the fact that the moral crusaders she was attempting to engage with do not tolerate ideological noncompliance. There was no “misunderstanding.” Chipps and the rest could detect that she was likely to continue to ask questions about the policy, and anyone who dares question such policies is clearly a “bigot” and a “transphobe,” and why would you want someone like that to be a moderator?

Word to the wise: people like this (moral crusaders) will not hesitate to burn your organization to the ground if they don’t get their way. They’ll run coups (like this), condemn you on Twitter, and scare everyone into first being silent, then leaving the org, either out of fear of being the next to be condemned, or just the exhaustion of dealing with it all. I have seen this happen to non-profits, conferences, even private school boards (take a look at Oberlin for an example). If you get crusaders like this in your org, you should consider it an existential threat.

Well, off to delete my Stack Overflow account.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#256

Post by _28jh » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:38 AM UTC

reccanti wrote: post #209

Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…

[flagged]

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#257

Post by mirimir » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:38 AM UTC

reccanti wrote: post #209

Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…

Fair enough. It's rather pointless to argue on HN about SE.

I'm entirely happy to use whatever pronouns people want. But here, how would I know? There aren't even images. Just names, and very often ~genderless names.

Edit: Also, upon reflection, I suspect that I don't even know the universe of gender pronouns in common use.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#258

Post by brankoB » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

groby_b wrote: post #206

yourbandsucks wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm gonna wade in hip-deep here and suggest that, given the size of the transgender community, the heat and hype of these issues are completely unwarranted. No hate towards anyone and I'll call anyone whatever they want as far as pronouns. But why is this a top-3 culture war issue? For a bunch of combatants who are overwhelmingly not trans and shouldn't really care? We need to think of a way to rise above without thr…

This is a top-3 culture war issue because it gives a perfect wedge. Gay marriage is lost as that issue, that was the next one theofascists latched on. (It's the same reason state legislatures are so very much concerned with gendered bathrooms these days) It is deliberately stoked time and again because it specifically fires up a large conservative base, and is life-threatening to a small group. As a bonus point for t…

Are you seriously equating misgendering someone with killing them?

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#259

Post by seandougall » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:39 AM UTC

tmp20191006cars wrote: post #200

dragonwriter wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why the hell are pronouns a centerpiece of a CoC? Because aggressive misgendering including by refusal to use the subject’s preferred pronouns is currently a significant form of harassment which is actively promoted by certain groups. > Just be nice to people. The fact that people aggressively refuse to do that is exactly what pronoun policies are responding to.

Might I suggest that most people who insist on using pronouns derived from one's biological sex (rather than gender) are not attempting to engage in harassment, but are simply refusing to concede a currently unsettled political and societal question?

Ah, yes, the fabled "biological pronoun".

Pronouns are not biological constructs. They don't have chromosomes, genitals, or secondary sex characteristics. They are, by definition, tied to gender.

How would life work if pronouns were determined biologically? For example, how would you figure out what pronouns to use to describe me, if we met in person?

You'd have to ask me to drop trou immediately after we met, which would generally be considered socially unacceptable, or at least a bit forward. But if I did it anyway, how would you know my genitalia hadn't been surgically altered? You could try to cross-reference my secondary sex characteristics, but even those could have been modified hormonally. Really, you'd have to ask for a DNA sample to determine which chromosomes I have, and even that might turn out not to align with the sex I was assigned at birth, much less the one I present today. And what pronouns do you choose if it turns out I have a combination other than XX or XY? It all seems like a lot of trouble and expense for pronouns anyway.

What I'm getting at is that people who make that sort of argument aren't actually saying, "the pronouns I'm using for you are based on your biology". That's just disingenuous, or at the very least shows that they haven't given it any actual thought. What they're really saying is, "the pronouns I'm using for you are what I think you look like, even if it's the opposite of what you tell me you are". I don't see how there's a well-intentioned way to interpret that.

It's so much safer (and easier!) just to take people at their word when they tell you their pronouns, just as you would when they tell you their name.

Re: An Update to Our Community and an Apology

#260

Post by merb » Sun, Oct 06, 2019, 3:42 AM UTC

NeedMoreTea wrote: post #223

reccanti wrote: post #209

Some of the responses to this article showcase opinions that I see a lot on Hacker News and which make it really hard to be on this site as a trans person sometimes. There’s a lot of attention being paid to the people who resigned, or whose moderator status was revoked—and how accommodating they may or may not have been—but it seems like very little of them are focusing on the people who this preferred pronoun policy…

SE is a Q&A site, to answer questions. HN an anonymous discussion. Most messages on both do without names and pronouns entirely. The few times they become necessary is it not better to simply stick to neutral? Not to be uncaring, offensive, or presumptuous, but to be neutral. In my life, in a social setting, in work etc I'm going to be much more likely to need to use names and pronouns. I'll make effort to get them r…

well I do not think that using non neutral pronouns or names is offensive to another gender. or at least it shouldn't be. example: in germany there is the word student. it means the same than the english version. in germany it uses a male pronoun, but the simple word targeted all kinds of students, not just male ones. the word just had a maskulin pronoun. unfortunatly it was gender incorrect, so some people came up with studentin, however now we sometimes need to deal with the rest and the languages get totally fucked up by genderfication. sometimes a maskulin pronoun does not target a certain group of people. i.e. using neutral/genderfication of pronouns/nouns most often makes it worse. it actually views the world as binary (only males/females) and is most often no the way the language was designed. (some words have a maskulin pronoun but still target everybody) using our languages differently also does not fix any poblem at all, in some cases it might make it even worse.