The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#201

Post by ohazi » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:44 PM UTC

trentnix wrote: post #40

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

Your campaign has the full support of the buggy drivers union, tube TV repairmen, and video store employees union.

> buggy drivers union

I read this as "buggy device drivers union" and had a sudden moment of clarity.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#202

Post by danans » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:47 PM UTC

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #168

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. Can somebody go into depth on this? Everyday I interact with people who have jobs that suck way more than coding and pay way less. Why wouldn't people want to work 40 hours remotely with full benefits making decent wages?

Spoken like a "Them", and not a "us". I've been on both coasts. I've been in big cities. The prosperity is there. The hope is there. The schooling and resources are there. My family came from the Appalachians. Hill country. they live off the land, cause the only money is from tourists. They used to work in the mines, but 'them environmentalists' ruined their livelihood and ended their bodily suffering so their kids c…

> So you get: bad education, bad jobs, no upward mobility, low/no healthcare. You get poverty equal to what we'd call 'Third World'.

This is often the situation faced by the poor and working classes on the coasts, also. Even if they have different beliefs from you on, i.e. social issues, on economic fairness there is a lot of agreement.

> We need socialism, especially when policies end up destroying counties, towns, and cities founded in old paradigms we now kill for being bad. We can end dirty jobs - but we should never end the people. But that's what we're doing.

The fleeting, once in a generation chance to turn the country in the direction you propose (cleaner jobs, more support for people and communities) begins in the upcoming primary election. Arguably, how people vote in places like Appalachia and the Midwest will decide if we enter your hopeful future, or continue down the current path toward the greater concentration of wealth in fewer hands.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#203

Post by the8472 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:50 PM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #193

woodandsteel wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size As battery prices continue to fall, electrics will get cheaper than ice's, so there will be less revenue. Beyond that, fsd means many people who now own a car will use robotaxis instead, which means many fewer autos needed. In addition Tesla is working on making its cars last a million miles. So t…

The move motivated by Full Self Drive away from full-time ownership and towards robotaxis should indeed reduce the number of personally owned vehicles, but would it really reduce the number of vehicles? Instead of vehicles driving 150K miles over 11 years (~~ average car age now in US) a robotaxi could burn through 500 miles in a day or 500K miles in 2.7 years. They'd certainly need the interior replaced several time…

> Overall miles driven, could it increase with robotaxis

Perhaps, but when robotaxis are a thing then robobuses will be too, which can drive vehicle-miles down even as passenger-miles go up.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#204

Post by woodandsteel » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 10:53 PM UTC

pnutjam wrote: post #181

woodandsteel wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Unless electric cars are going to generate less revenue than petroleum based, which they won't, the pie is the same size As battery prices continue to fall, electrics will get cheaper than ice's, so there will be less revenue. Beyond that, fsd means many people who now own a car will use robotaxis instead, which means many fewer autos needed. In addition Tesla is working on making its cars last a million miles. So t…

Don't believe the hype.

If you think I am wrong, then it would be helpful if you explained what you think the truth is.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#205

Post by redisman » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #164

wcoenen wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fischer-Tropsch process is about 50% efficient. (This is starting from biomass, it will be worse starting with air and extracting CO2, which is hard because less than 0.05% of air is CO2) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001623611... Then the fuel is burned. Internal combustion engines are typically 20% efficient. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine?wpr... So burning synthet…

Most electricity is produced by burning coal heating up water and sending it through a turbine. The efficiency is limited by the maximum the carnot cycle can give you. In general less than 60%. Still not as bad as 10%, sure. But if you get your energy with solar cells we could get into regions where the efficiencies are comparable. All Fisher-Tropsch needs is heat and using solar you have plenty of that.

So when you argue for your point, electricity for the process comes from solar but when you argue against someone elses point it comes from coal?

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#206

Post by ohazi » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:04 PM UTC

Reubend wrote: post #111

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

I disagree. It's the responsibility of each worker to maintain the skills they need to be valuable in the modern economy. Our government should help the unemployed, but paying them off "until they reached retirement age" means that the people who are still employed are paying for them to do nothing.

> means that the people who are still employed are paying for them to do nothing.

That's literally the point. The cost to society of having a large, disgruntled, restless, unemployed population is high. If this population decides to revolt, the cost could be catastrophically high.

The goal is to pay this population less than the total dollar value of the expected damage, but still enough to stave off the most expensive / disasterous outcomes.

If you prefer, employable people like living in a world where they're employable. If the unemployable decide to revolt, that world could be threatened. It may hurt your sensibilities, but paying them to do nothing could still be the least expensive option.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#207

Post by myself248 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:06 PM UTC

fzeroracer wrote: post #77

blunte wrote: post #4

One person’s right to keep a job is not greater than humanity’s right to reasonable progress. It’s cases like these that give unions a bad name.

Would you be willing to say the same thing were it your head on the proverbial chopping block? Would you be willing to lose your career, your only source of income and potentially more as a consequence, such as your home? Are you willing to right now, make the same sacrifice in the name of progress for humanity?

I've completely changed careers before when the jobs dried up. I'm completely confident in my ability to do so again.

Specialization is for insects.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#208

Post by crooked-v » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:12 PM UTC

pro8ndi wrote: post #161

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

The extreme is an entire country unprepared to deal with the end of the emotional meme they’ve spent their lives soaking up. It’s pretty simple: Ownership is unwilling to spend on the mess their wealth relies on. The masses are too incapable of adaptation on their own, having been trained to fit radiators and hub caps, not participate in the political process. Adam Smith’s concern over extreme division of labor makin…

> social welfare work

Why require it to be work? Giving out a UBI would be more productive than inventing filler work.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#209

Post by chadcmulligan » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #142

hanniabu wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that anytime a discussion about massive companies paying workers more comes up, that somehow somebody thinks this is socialism. Employees deserve to be fairly compensated.

Probably because "employees deserve to be fairly compensated" is a concept from communism (not socialism, but Americans get the two confused all the time) as soon as you divorce "fairly" from "what the employer and employee agree to in a free labor market." That's not a bad thing, but it's how the definitions and philosophies flow.

The capitalists have a way better marketing arm than the communists to, which contributes to the argument

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#210

Post by crooked-v » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 11:15 PM UTC

jdnenej wrote: post #150

Thriptic wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I have said in a number of these types of threads, saying we will pay people off / implement UBI as a solution to reduced participation in the labor force dramatically underestimates the complexity of the problems of automation / globalization / de-industrialization. Most people want to work; they derive self-esteem from their labor and for being a provider; and status is awarded by society depending on the type o…

There is unlimited meaningful work available that doesn't generate much real profit. You can easily perform music on the street which others enjoy but you won't make a lot of money. You can easily learn crafts to create things for your friends and family that they will appreciate but not pay for. You can easily get in to competitive sport without having to be part of the very top % who get paid for it. We just need t…

Teaching in particular comes to mind as something that quite a lot of people might be more interested in if it didn't mean living off low teacher salaries.