The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars • Hacker News Board

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#101

Post by closeparen » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #6

blunte wrote: post #4

One person’s right to keep a job is not greater than humanity’s right to reasonable progress. It’s cases like these that give unions a bad name.

When shipping firms moved to shipping containers mid 20th century, the productivity gains were split between corporations and the union to buy out longshoreman so there was a graceful transition out for these folks who were no longer needed. (Check out the book “The Box: How the Shipping Container Made the World Smaller and the World Economy Bigger - Second Edition”, which goes into some detail about this) It’s not h…

Our lack of a system to prioritize incumbents also gives us our good name, and the wealth you mention. We can absolutely take better care of people out of work, but "change requires the consent of everyone affected" is not the path.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#102

Post by Animats » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:06 PM UTC

It's not clear that electric cars will take less labor to build. Tesla's experience is that their cars take far more labor to build than Ford or Toyota or VW needs to build a car.[1] Even the battery pack operation is surprisingly labor-intensive.

Automobile engine building, on the other hand, has been mostly automated since the 1950s.

[11 https://www.autonews.com/article/20170611/OEM01/170619951/te...

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#103

Post by Johnny555 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:08 PM UTC

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #46

ericmay wrote: post #11

As a society we need to make sure we are taking care of people when their industry is destroyed. The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. If we want those coal plants to shut down we should have offered to pay off the workers until they reached retirement age. If you “take away” someone’s job for the sake of progress, then you’ll make enemies of progress…

> The whole “learn 2 code” thing that was directed toward coal workers was exactly the wrong thing to do. Can somebody go into depth on this? Everyday I interact with people who have jobs that suck way more than coding and pay way less. Why wouldn't people want to work 40 hours remotely with full benefits making decent wages?

There are plenty of people that would rather work with their hands than work with their minds. My brother included - he owns a successful blue-collar business (selling accessories he installs on construction trucks), but no amount of handholding or sitting down with him has been successful at weaning himself off of his paper bookkeeping system.

He spends hours every year at tax time, carefully collating his paper records onto a paper ledger that he shares with his accountant. If he'd enter the data into even the most basic of bookkeeping systems or even an Excel spreadsheet, tax time would take him a few minutes (and he wouldn't be paying his accountant so much to handle the paper). And he'd have a better handle on monthly expenses, revenue, etc. his system works for him, it's just labor intensive.

But he still makes a good living at what he does, he just prefers to do it with a welder while climbing on a truck. Even if he were offered free coding classes, he wouldn't take it -- he can't understand how I can possibly sit in front of a computer all day long, stuck in an office.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#104

Post by chillacy » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:08 PM UTC

sprash wrote: post #22

Can somebody explain to me why we need to switch to electric cars when we have Fischer-Tropsch to produce fuel literally out of thin air? We could keep all the existing infrastructure while having zero CO2 impact. I think digging up loads of Lithium and Cobalt and plastering the country with charging stations is neither more sustainable nor less environmentally harmful.

This has been known for since the 20s, Nazi germany used the process in WW2 but not by choice. There are inefficiencies with any conversion like that, from electrical to chemical. Whether or not that's better than the externalities from rare earth mining, I'm not sure.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#105

Post by Merrill » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:11 PM UTC

bluedino wrote: post #29

There are so many parts involved with a traditional engine and transmission. Living in Michigan, there are lots of companies building these individual parts. I know a guy who works at a place that builds springs for transmissions ( https://www.pjws.com/our-products/ ) Valvetrain parts, pistons, rings, crankshafts, starters, heads, oil pumps, exhaust manifolds, mufflers, fuel injectors, sensors...none of this stuff is…

Apparently the auto manufacturers are doing their own designs, and at first glance, it would appear that they need some of the same metalworking skills as ICE engines. Although in setting up new lines, they are probably much more automated. https://www.thedrive.com/tech/17505/the-secrets-of-electric-...

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#106

Post by bob_theslob646 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:12 PM UTC

e12e wrote: post #7

Is it? I found this linked from uaw.org: https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/ny-oped-why-i-strike-201...

>We made sacrifices, froze our pensions, halved our pay and gave up benefits to save GM, the automotive industry, and the U.S. economy.

These people think they saved the U.S economy? What are they smoking. They still us the government 11.3 billion dollars from the government bailing them out.[1]

>GM also chose to rip away our health care coverage in the dead of night, effective immediately and without warning.

This is a crucial topic that must be addressed. Should companies be responsible for employee health care? I do not know the answer, but that seems to be the trend.( Cut full time workers, hire part time works to avoid having to pay for healthcare.) [1](https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/entities/233-general...)

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#107

Post by brownbat » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

China has over ten different companies making EVs under $14,000.

If EVs were more like commodity electronics products and less niche, if there were broad competition, things could change faster than anyone expects.

There are a lot of entrenched stakeholders in the US though. UAW, dealerships, policy will control the outcome more than technology for a while.

https://wattev2buy.com/china-ev-price-list-rank-chinese-elec...

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#108

Post by chronotis » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:14 PM UTC

robocat wrote: post #84

chronotis wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bringing this point back closer to home: I've been a "software professional" of one shape or another for over 20 years now. In my case, that's come with a never-ending need to constantly retool: new languages, new SDKs, new device types, new APIs, etc., etc. I'm sure this sounds familiar. There are a LOT of jobs out there that don't have any continuing education requirement, or where the idea of learning some new com…

> In my case, that's come with a never-ending need to constantly retool: new languages, new SDKs, new device types, new APIs, etc., etc. I think over time those things are not as significant as the changes in disciplines (titles?) or verticals. E.g. Changing from an embedded SE to front end UX is more difficult than the languages or tools involved. Edit: is it harder to retrain from front end to embedded? I've travel…

True, and (so far for me, anyway) it's usually been a slow-motion transition so there's been enough time to get ahead of the wave. Or at least keep up with it...as long as you're paying attention.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#109

Post by sandworm101 » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:18 PM UTC

maxerickson wrote: post #56

sandworm101 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Employers regularly turn down applicants for lack of minor courses. Knowing how to weld means nothing to HR box tickers. An afternoon at joes upstairs welding school: tick. I saw a kid not get a job because she hadnt ever used a fax machine.

I have a feeling that welding in particular is relatively resistant to meaningless certifications.

But it is a trade that was once taught by employers. They would teach the type/style/quality of welding they needed for the job.

Re: The GM strike is really about the switch to electric cars

#110

Post by Merrill » Sat, Oct 05, 2019, 8:19 PM UTC

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #42

heisenbit wrote: post #17

The US auto industry is on two non sustainable paths. The first is internal combustion engines. The second is building fewer but more expensive cars.

The second part is difficult because pretty much all cars last longer than they used to. People will grumble about plastic body panels and cheap interiors but overall the average car simply lasts longer than they would in the heyday of the Big 3. Even with a growing population, better built cars are creating less demand. There are other factors, such as ride sharing, remote work, and online socializing, but none of t…

The average age is up to 11.8 years for the 278 million car, SUVs and light trucks in the US. The market shift to SUVs was also a shift to more durable vehicles, as was the shift away from US cars to foreign cars. As more and more stringent government regulations make new vehicles less desirable and more expensive, drivers will maintain and retain their existing vehicles until we look like Havana. https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-vehicle-age-incre...