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We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

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Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#141
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm too lazy at the moment to look up a link but fast food restaurants are already adopting these faux-beef burgers and people love them.

yes, but i doubt that cost-parity alone will get people to stop eating meat. there has to be more than that. the popularity of these alternatives is an indicator but not everyone primarily eats burgers. there is also still the general problem with all processed foods being less healthy than naturally grown foods...

I think the cost will decline rapidly while the quality (in general and in how closely it resembles real meat) will increase. Even if people prefer to eat animal flesh the economics will drive mass consumption to faux-meat, IMO.

> there is also still the general problem with all processed foods being less healthy than naturally grown foods...

Yer preachin' to the choir: I'll never eat these franken-burgers for love nor money.

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work in the food distribution system, and regularly witnessed entire dumpsters full of perfectly good food being destroyed. Consumers, as usual, are the key to changing this. We'd have to change the eating and shopping habits of an entire generation to change this. Changing the system won't work without changing the way we think about food and food shopping.

Can you write some detailed stories of what led to those dumpsters being destroyed? I think there's not a good understanding of what leads to larger-scale food waste. For instance, I've seen a few people online pitching "ugly produce" startups. But what prevents Campbells Soup and Jamba Juice from buying all the ugly fruit/veggies?

> Global food loss and waste[1] amount to between one-third[2] and one-half[3] of all food produced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_waste

Start here?

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=food+waste+story

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#143

I guess we'll never learn from things like margarine and other lab invented foods. Beyond Meat is heavily dependent on seed oils which are terrible for us (expeller pressed canola oil is ingredient #2). Red Meat actually isn't unhealthy at the levels most people currently eat it. While it wouldn't surprise me if more people ate Beyond meat and its ilk in the future, it doesn't make it better for us and will likely ju…

Fast food has never been a cornerstone of healthy living, and I reckon few people eat hamburgers at home.

The real benefit, in my mind, is not removing the staple treat of fast food from the market, while vastly reducing our need to farm red meat.

I would posit adoption of plant based diets "under the hood" of fast food (and hopefully restaurants) is one of the easiest, most effective ways of dramatically reducing red meat consumption. This has an enormous impact. Most cropland is used for livestock feed, and 1/3 of ALL US LAND is used for pasture.

This is why a plant based diet is on the top 10 ways to fight global climate change (4. Plant-rich diet), and starts to remove incentives for slash-and-burn agriculture (5. Better tropical forest health). Growing a lb of meat requires significantly more land, water, (and therefore fertilizer, etc), than the equivalent macros from plants.

"That is, even if nothing about our energy infrastructure or transportation system changed—and even if people kept eating chicken and pork and eggs and cheese—this one dietary change could achieve somewhere between 46 and 74 percent of the reductions needed to meet the target. "

https://getpocket.com/explore/item/if-everyone-ate-beans-ins...

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/

https://www.drawdown.org/the-book

Next we should tackle ethanol (1/3 of corn yields go to ethanol).

Any "well it may not be better for you" argument against this approach does seem to ignore that we believed red meat was bad for you for decades and we still spend so much of our resources growing red meat.

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Life... finds a way. Someday, we'll hit a Malthusian bottleneck that we can't innovate our way out of, presumably. However, to date, every time disaster looms, something occurs that kicks the can down the road. It makes it very difficult to take seriously the endlessly repeatedly claims that the world as we know it is coming to an end in the short term - the result of such hysteria seems to be to induce a lot of self…

No idea why you're getting downvoted - this is perfectly true. I guess because people secretly long for the world to end. Rapture, Climate Change, nuclear armageddon, AIDS, Y2K, Peak Oil, take your pick. It's been a constant of life in Western civilisation for the last 50 years at least. There has never been a period in my life when there hasn't been some impending catastrophe that was going to destroy life as we kno…

> It's been a constant of life in Western civilisation for the last 50 years at least.

A little longer than that. E.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocalypse

The difference is we didn't have nuclear weapons, genetic engineering, chemistry (for chem weapons), etc. We could actually do it now.

"We are as gods and might as well get good at it."

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s wrong with oils though? And if canola is bad why can’t they switch it out for olive oil?

Olive oil is not that good for you, and most importantly, it burns at really low temperatures, and ends up tasting horrible when it happens.

That's patently false. There is no proof whatsoever that olive oil is not good for you. Every study on extra virgin cold pressed olive oil shows it is associted with increased longevity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17879997

The low temperature smokepoint scaremongering for olive oil has been debunked: https://health.usnews.com/wellness/food/articles/why-you-sho...

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#146

I guess we'll never learn from things like margarine and other lab invented foods. Beyond Meat is heavily dependent on seed oils which are terrible for us (expeller pressed canola oil is ingredient #2). Red Meat actually isn't unhealthy at the levels most people currently eat it. While it wouldn't surprise me if more people ate Beyond meat and its ilk in the future, it doesn't make it better for us and will likely ju…

Not many people like to talk about this point because it seems off mode but those things made me quite sick. I was disappointed because I’m always in for a good burger no matter what it’s made with. (Don’t extrapolate that on me please!) There were several threads on r/vegan that spoke to the same symptoms, but with only vague guesses to the cause—like the oils. There is a lot of hubris displayed in the world of nutr…

I haven't heard of any kind of (edible!) oil acutely making people ill. Why is that the assumption with Impossible Burgers?

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work in the food distribution system, and regularly witnessed entire dumpsters full of perfectly good food being destroyed. Consumers, as usual, are the key to changing this. We'd have to change the eating and shopping habits of an entire generation to change this. Changing the system won't work without changing the way we think about food and food shopping.

Can you write some detailed stories of what led to those dumpsters being destroyed? I think there's not a good understanding of what leads to larger-scale food waste. For instance, I've seen a few people online pitching "ugly produce" startups. But what prevents Campbells Soup and Jamba Juice from buying all the ugly fruit/veggies?

The distribution food chain in the UK (and I assume the EU) requires all refrigerated food to be between 0C and -5C (iirc - this was a while back) for the entire journey. At least once a week a truck would turn up with a fridge problem that caused the temperature to go above 0 for over 5 mins. We would dump the entire lot. The food was perfectly good, it was still frozen, perfectly edible, and the warehouse guys regularly snatched their lunch from it. But unsuitable for public consumption.

Orders were often mis-placed or fat-fingered, and too much food would get delivered (or too little, but that's another story). Sometimes the stores would accept an over-delivery and allow it through, most times not, so it got destroyed.

Food deliveries to our centre had a specific 15-minute window. If the vehicle arrived outside that window, we would try and accomodate it if we could, but often couldn't. In extreme cases the truck would not be unloaded and have to return to the producer. Sometimes they took the food back with them. Sometimes they dumped it at our place and went back empty, because it would go out of date before it could be re-delivered.

The saddest case I saw: a supermarket chain buyer found an artisan cheese producer in Wales who was making amazing cheese. The buyer set up the contract, the artisan bought a van to deliver the cheese to us. But no-one told them the specs. They turned up in a nice little refrigerated van, when all our docks only accepted articulated trucks. We couldn't handball the produce without exposing it to ambient temperatures, so we couldn't accept delivery. Poor sod had to drive back to Wales with a van full of unsold cheese that was going out of sell-by date and was packaged in packaging. I expect most of that was destroyed.

This was one interaction in an entire distribution chain. Every interaction was this leaky. And that didn't count the final stores who (as everyone knows) routinely destroy perfectly edible food that has reached its sell-by date.

There have been initiatives to get this edible food to people in need. All of them run into the legal problem that you cannot serve people food that has passed its sell-by date. It's perfectly edible, but if someone gets food poisoning after eating it then that's on you, and there's no way of dodging that liability. People in poverty have a right not to be poisoned.

The "ugly food" thing is a product of EU legislation (in the UK anyway). I was amazed when I moved to Australia at how ugly the veggies are ;) I'm pretty sure that the ugly food gets sold at a lower price to food manufacturers (as you say).

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#148
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A farmer friend of mine opines: "organic just means bugs have crawled over it before you eat it" The rise of veganism, mostly on ethical grounds, shows that nutritional equivalence may in fact be a minority concern, and that the ethics of "cruelty-free" eating supercede all nutritional concerns.

Put another way, “organic means a bug was able to crawl over your food without dying”.

I like that. I'll tell him when I see him next :)

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even technically an anecdote, let alone data, but here's a more accurate description of what's "already" happening: A vanishingly small fraction of fast-food restaurants are taking small steps to experiment with offering faux-beef burgers as an additional menu option for the small percentage of their customers who might want that.

In the cold light of morning... Here we go: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/entertainment/the-scene/Plant-Bas... > A number of fast-food chains have introduced plant-based meat alternatives in recent months, partnering with meatless companies Beyond Meat or Impossible Foods. > They are reacting to consumers' increased appetite for those foods: from April 2018 to April 2019, the plant-based retail market has registered 11%…

I highly doubt your last paragraph. Meatless would have to be clearly better on at least one axis that matters to customers, and not significantly worse on any other axis. I don't see that happening.

(And don't bother to say "no animals harmed". That isn't an axis that matters to customers of beef.)

Re: We are on the cusp of a disruption in food and agricultural production

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not even technically an anecdote, let alone data, but here's a more accurate description of what's "already" happening: A vanishingly small fraction of fast-food restaurants are taking small steps to experiment with offering faux-beef burgers as an additional menu option for the small percentage of their customers who might want that.

In the cold light of morning... Here we go: https://www.nbcnewyork.com/entertainment/the-scene/Plant-Bas... > A number of fast-food chains have introduced plant-based meat alternatives in recent months, partnering with meatless companies Beyond Meat or Impossible Foods. > They are reacting to consumers' increased appetite for those foods: from April 2018 to April 2019, the plant-based retail market has registered 11%…

The value of the US plant-based meat retail market is still less than 2% of the value of the US animal meat retail market. I think it would be incredible if this were the base of the "hockey-stick" curve, it would fundamentally transform what agriculture looks like in the United States; but there are a lot of reasons to think that growth will slow substantially before the two markets are even in the same ballpark.
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