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Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

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Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#161
post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

I'm a bit like you. I'm very much so a self starter (maybe I'm assuming a bit there), an avid reader, and I grew up in a situation I wouldn't wish on anyone. I turned out more than alright, but like you said, it's due to a massive amount of hard work. I figured I'd offer a different point of view for you to consider.

First off, I want to make it clear I respect that you likely feel like the parent comment takes away from your hard work. No one is questioning that hard work and perseverance makes a difference in life. You and I are probably good examples of that.

However, I want to also make it clear that even though we got where we are today through hard work, it doesn't hurt either of us to consider how much further we could have gotten (or how much faster) if we were afforded the advantages others had.

For instance, I wish I could go start my own business, but I have to weigh the fact that I have zero social safety net. As such I'm left to save for at least few years in a salaried position before I can even consider it (and yes, I do hack my own side projects in my off hours). You're probably thinking I should just go do it, right? Well, I need the medical insurance unfortunately. I have a sleep disorder called sleep apnea (and before you assume I'm fat or something, I'm a gym rat). One night without my machine will likely result in my death one day (my AHI is 79). Now consider those who have it worse than me!

Inequality is a given, it's not a debate to be had. What if you had been born blind? Or with fetal alcohol syndrome? Just do some hard work friend! What if you not only lacked a system of support, but had a system of the opposite? People actively trying to ruin your life while growing up? This is a reality for a lot of folks!

So when you say "it's possible!", yes of course it is. But is it likely? No. The environment you're born in, the safety net you have, the people around you, the medical conditions you have, they all have a tremendous effect on your life. To suggest otherwise is foolish at best, but more likely willfully ignorant and prideful. Am I proud to be where I am? Yes, and a discussion on inequality doesn't make me feel threatened. It shouldn't feel threatening to you either.

Yes, hard work like ours can sometimes overcome terrible scenarios. But even I know I could wake up tomorrow with cancer and find my life savings drained. No amount of hard work can save me from that situation.

You're also assuming that those friends / family / neighbors you grew up with didn't work hard. Just because they weren't successful (your words by the way, not their own I'm sure), doesn't mean they didn't work hard. Hard work does not equate to "success" (or what you think of as success) in all scenarios. That's life.

The parent comment tried to explain all this, and honestly probably did a better job than I did, but I figured I would offer you my point of view.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But I was a lazy entitled "upper middle class" kid. I have my job because my parents could afford to support my lazy ass for so long. So yeah, if you have the grit and drive you can help yourself out to a certain point. But some of us didn't need any grit and basically coasted through life. Why do I deserve this more than kids with less well off parents that fell somewhere between me and you - not a complete la…

Because your parents worked hard for your outcome, as theirs did for them. It's the same thing that drives the success of societies and nations, each generation living on the bounty of the blood, sweat, and toil of those that came before. An outsider may view with envy at the position of the people in the society, but it doesn't diminish the rights of the people in that society to it just because they didn't make it.…

[deleted]

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#163
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't concern myself with what such people do up until they start voting for politicians that want to raise taxes on everyone else to subsidize their lifestyle.

Money as it currently exists isn't personal property, it's an instrument for managing debt incurred by economic activity. Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests. Sucks for you, but then, it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle.

> Higher taxes on you are just society shifting their priorities away from your interests

We shouldn't be prioritizing anyone's interests via an institution with the right to licit first use of force. We have the technology now to charge people directly for the government-provided services they use. If you use it, you should pay for it. Until we start doing this, society is never going to price things properly and prices are the fastest mechanism for a society to communicate what is important.

Unilaterally taking away IOUs someone has accumulated without recompense merely deprioritizing someone's interests. It's theft.

> it could just be the rebound from society over-subsidizing your lifestyle.

what aspects of my lifestyle do you believe society over-subsidizing?

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But I was a lazy entitled "upper middle class" kid. I have my job because my parents could afford to support my lazy ass for so long. So yeah, if you have the grit and drive you can help yourself out to a certain point. But some of us didn't need any grit and basically coasted through life. Why do I deserve this more than kids with less well off parents that fell somewhere between me and you - not a complete la…

Because your parents worked hard for your outcome, as theirs did for them. It's the same thing that drives the success of societies and nations, each generation living on the bounty of the blood, sweat, and toil of those that came before. An outsider may view with envy at the position of the people in the society, but it doesn't diminish the rights of the people in that society to it just because they didn't make it.…

[deleted]

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#165
post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

Is it more about knowing that venture/activity/learning will get you somewhere. Why do African American youth more prominent in sports activities and music entertainment and not educational activities? Because through generations and partially media, that is the the (only) way to success. If there are no role models, sometimes it is hard to believe that one can make it if "noone" else broke that mold.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#167

The lack of money gives people with lower income a problem that the brain cannot solve. Not everyone can 'just get a job' that easily. I've experienced periods in my life where I kept thinking in circles to find a way to get some money for our basic needs. The only solution was to simply keep trying and waiting for some luck or fate. Of course that fucks your brain! I knew a professor in Berlin who was living in the…

This is accurate and fascinating. That's exactly how it feels. Like an problem that you can't solve even though one is capable and skilled.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I'm arguing that by that reasoning we have much, much bigger fish to fry than the poor.

Here in the USA, we have the best congress money can buy. Politicians are immensely corrupt and quite beholden to their campaign donors. If any member of congress dares to refuse a wealthy organization a favor, that organization can wind up bankrolling someone to primary that member of congress. As long as the supreme court maintains that money is speech, I can see no way to solve the problem of money in politics.

Let us not ignore the fact that Congress also uses taxpayer money to buy votes and that only about 44% of households pay federal income tax, with the top few percent paying the bulk.

The more I see how the democratic platform has devolved in the last 4 years, the more I have come to understand and agree with the decision in Citizens United. Right now, we have at least two candidates talking about a pretty extreme wealth tax (which is a tax on money you've already paid a ton of taxes on) all because others are envious of what they have and just want to use mob rule to steal.

Allowing money to influence votes, in a way is not unlike how a bicameral congress works. We have one that has equal representation (the Senate) and one that has proportional representation (the House). Similarly, every one has one vote (equal representation) and the ability to donate money to influence those votes and the amount of influence you are able to exert is proportional to the amount of value you've accrued from mutually beneficial voluntary transactions with others in that society whereby you provided to them some good or service they found valuable (proportional representation).

Money in politics is one of the greatest forces for the protection of private property. Without it, we'd likely devolve into a place like Venezuela where private property is seized unilaterally without recompense because the people voted for someone who promised them that they would use the government's right to licit first use of force to take private property from private citizens.

Had Martin Niemöller been born in pre-Soviet Union Russia or pro-Chavez Venezuela, he might have started his poem this way instead:

"First they came for the billionaires..."

Eventually, they'll come for the middle and upper middle class like they've done in many countries that become communist/socialist in the 20th and 21st centuries.

This is not to say that money in politics isn't a corrupting force, it is. But a democracy is also corrupting. The two balance each other out.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." — Alexander Fraser Tytler (possibly Alexis de Toqueville)

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#170
This is not a comment to undermine the effect of the hardship of having a precarious situation, but it must be said that scientifically, it is impossible to conclude a causality vs a correlation.

I am not saying that this is true, but it is possible that people with unsteady incomes are more risk-taking, which in itself is a psychological traits which may be linked to poorer performance in iq-like test in middle age.

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