Pricing niche products • Hacker News Board

Re: Pricing niche products

#251

Post by james-mcelwain » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:08 PM UTC

dwild wrote: post #243

antoinealb wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be interested in seeing an AB test of keyboard enthusiast between say a 200$ keyboard and one that is 5x as expensive. Audiophiles also claimed that they would definitely notice a difference.

I can't speak for him and I'm not saying I agree with this, but I believe what he means is that what they buy it for is actually what they get. Audiophile are buying it for better audio, but the quality isn't actually better. Keyboard enthusiast buy it for different materials, finishes, color scheme, sets of switches, sets of keycaps, etc... They all can be done in a better or inferior quality. I wouldn't agree with…

Yes, this is what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that the margins of quality are worth a 5x price point (it's not), but it's not quite the same as some of the voodoo beliefs among audiophiles that a 20k tube amp makes an appreciable difference.

As a disclosure, I own expensive audiophile gear, but, again, for the aesthetics primarily. I would be much happier with audiophiles if they just said they like the aesthetics.

Re: Pricing niche products

#252

Post by phaus » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:09 PM UTC

pmarreck wrote: post #218

lewisflude wrote: post #12

I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.) It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end. Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-pric…

You would think (rationally at least) that people obsessed with the optimal interface between user and computer would focus on non-QWERTY layouts instead of dropping dough on intricate mechanical keyboards (yeah, cue "por que no los dos?" but still!)

There's a lot of people in this hobby that use Dvorak, and the other obscure layout that I don't even remember the name of. Some even design and sell PCBs/entire kits for them. Most of the keyboards seem to use QMK, an open source, programmable firmware so you can do whatever you want.

There's a lot of debate on those layouts and their usefulness. There's people that swear it saved them from RSI and there's people that say nothing can be proven about the health benefits of any alternative layout. There are a lot of people that switched to an alternative for a few weeks, months, or even a year and then went back to qwerty. I've stuck with qwerty so I don't have a lot of knowledge on the subject.

Re: Pricing niche products

#253

Post by james-mcelwain » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:11 PM UTC

CDSlice wrote: post #176

phaus wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are switches that cost several dollars each that feel distinctly different. In general though I agree, with a specific set of switches, there is likely not a quantifiable improvement to be had by spending $800 more. However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one anothe…

> However, each keyboard case + switch + keycap setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't really an objective improvement but they will likely be distinguishable from one another. Some people are into it for the way it sounds. This sounds pretty much like what headphone audiophiles say. > However, each driver + housing + amp setup is going to feel and sound slightly different. So it isn't reall…

Differences in headphones are real. Spending 20k on a custom tube amp is not.

I wouldn't really consider nice headphones to be a prime example of audiophile gear, tbh.

Re: Pricing niche products

#254

Post by james-mcelwain » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:12 PM UTC

vlunkr wrote: post #148

james-mcelwain wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The key difference being audiophiles often fail A/B tests comparing audio quality. You would definitely notice how nice an expensive mechanical keyboard feels. Whether you think that is worth luxury pricing is another story, but the quality is at least more immediately appreciable.

I don’t think it’s different actually. Sure, jumping from a 20$ keyboard to a 200$ one makes a massive difference, but from 200$ to 2000$, the benefits are marginal, (outside of aesthetics). Similar comparisons can be made to any category of audio equipment.

I'm not saying it's not marginal, but if you spend time around audiophiles, they make lots of claims that aren't just "marginal" but simply not based in reality. I would not spend $2000 on a keyboard, but I believe people who do are doing it largely based on aesthetics, not the kind of imaginary science that audiophiles do.

Re: Pricing niche products

#255

Post by Mtinie » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:13 PM UTC

pclark wrote: post #90

phaus wrote: post #2

I have a $600+ keyboard so I'm a part of this hobby. However, only a part of this can be explained by the expense of manufacturing at a small scale. The hobby fully embraces the drawbacks of the small scale and intentionally does nothing to try to improve it because the exclusivity drives prices up to an insane point. A typical group buy for a popular case sells out in minutes or days time after time. Clearly some of…

the boards and caps are nothing compared to artisan keycaps. i have traded countless things to acquire keycaps that would sell for $250+ each. one keycap! brobot caps are especially rare and i frequently see people buying them for $500 each i actually think artisans make sense to be so expensive since there is a level of artistry and rarity that most boards do not have. some of the rare korean boards are super rare t…

You've got me curious, what makes a particular keycap sell the prices you quote?

I can understand how valuation tied to rarity, but people paying ~$500 for a single cap implies that there's significantly more to it than scarcity. I know that if I try to search for an answer I'll get a bunch of cruft given my lack of knowledge of what question to even ask, so I'm hoping you can provide some background for a n00b :)

Thank you in advance!

Re: Pricing niche products

#256

Post by cr0sh » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:14 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #117

DennisP wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought I was a keyboard buff with my Cherry Reds and Browns. I'd never even heard of Healios or Box Jade.

Some people still prefer blues, I might be slightly exaggerating. Not everyone wants a key as hard to press as a box jade but I love them. When they did a survey of /r/mechanicalkeyboards the most common favorite is Brown, Blue was up there too. /r/mechanicalkeyboards and /r/mechmarket area great place to go to further investigate the hobby. Be warned I can't be held responsible for anyone's wallet.

Are there any switches that come close to the feel and sound of buckling spring (aka Model M) switches?

I haven't been able to find anything like that; even the stiffest and clickiest and tactilest cherry key switches I've played with don't come close to the feel.

I'm not sure where Unicomp gets theirs - likely make them in-house would be my guess.

I currently own two original Model M keyboards, and one Unicomp Classic USB (it was given to me as part of my severance package from a former employer because nobody else wanted it after they downsized me - so they stuck it in the box of my things they shipped back to me).

But I can't find keycaps for any of those that are "all black" (which I'd like for my Unicomp - which is a black case design - but greyish keycaps).

So a "standard" switch, with keycaps - but with the same feel, etc as an original buckling spring switch - that's what I'm looking for (under-key blue glow to match my case effects would also be a nice thing - but baby steps).

Re: Pricing niche products

#257

Post by sova » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:16 PM UTC

kragen wrote: post #75

sova wrote: post #61

Really fantastic write-up and, "why the hell not get a flushed out demand curve?" duh! Brilliant! We sell an online digital product that is subscription based. Do you think such a mechanism makes sense there, too?

It might be harder to convince your subscribers that your servers can only support 10 subscribers. They might band together to buy an account for a proxy server. Maybe if you're selling something inherently limited, like sponsorship banner space, or indulgences in inter-user conflicts (“we guarantee to ban any non-core-supporter who reports your account as abusive”).

It's a language learning curriculum in our case, so individual progress is tied to the subscription, making it undesirable to share (but possible s'pose)

Re: Pricing niche products

#258

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

phjesusthatguy3 wrote: post #105

lewisflude wrote: post #12

I'm in the $600+ club too (Kepler that has a full brass bottom weight 6+kg, Kepler 65 with it's forged carbon top etc.) It's a really strange hobby. A bunch of people who really value and love keyboards, the thing that sits between a human and a computer, a tool that many (developers, writers, gamers) use every day for hours on end. Similar to how someone might invest in a nice knife if they love cooking, luxury-pric…

HN lambasts audiophiles every time stupid expensive audio gear comes up, yet here we are paying $hundreds for gimmick keyboard stuff. SF developers making $100k or two a year just aren't in the same money league of the audiophiles spending $thousands on speaker wire. EDIT: I'm not mad at any of the above groups I've mentioned; everybody gets their kicks from something, as well they should. I'm just mentioning what I…

[deleted]

Re: Pricing niche products

#259

Post by cr0sh » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:17 PM UTC

pilsetnieks wrote: post #59

katet wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in case this strikes anyone as dismissive, I too sincerely miss the old, beige keyboards that used to come with things like the old IBM, Tiny, MiTac, and Amiga brands I scavenged as a teenager. And those things were _robust_ - you could strip them down, soak them in detergent overnight, and have them good as new the next day without key caps falling off or the space bar sticking.

Those keyboard enthusiasts are in fact obsessing about the very same keyboards you mention, like the IBM Model M. One of those in good condition can be sold for quite a bit of money.

IIRC - the Model F keyboard of the old XT was one beast. I used have an XT I rescued from the trash; that thing had a solid aluminum case and weighed a ton. I love my Model M keyboards and my Unicomp - but I would love one of those older keyboards.

Re: Pricing niche products

#260

Post by sk5t » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 6:24 PM UTC

phaus wrote: post #250

CDSlice wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh yes, I 100% agree with you on that. $2000 cables are just stupid. However, you can spend around $100 or so on really nice handmade cables that look and feel better than the stock cables, which seems comparable to spending lots of money on artisinal keycaps, no?

Its more comparable than you think. Those artisan cables with fancy bnc connectors and pretty colors are also available for keyboards. Some are like $40-50 but some are into the hundreds. They are sold for aesthetic reasons. I myself have some decent quality, but still pretty average cables because I think my white plastic cables look good with my white plastic $600 keyboard. My cables were probably $10-12 from amazo…

I think it really isn't comparable, because the audiophiles--certain of them anyway--are totally mired in defending that their expensive aesthetic changes make a difference. They'll even try to wrap themselves in science and argue that "hospital grade" electrical outlets, fancy plugs, or whatever, make a discernible difference in the "air" or "pace" of the music. Nevermind that these are mostly old guys with tin ears, obsessing over Yes or Steely Dan. Ready to defend to the very end that a $500 toslink (or ethernet!) cable is worse than a $1000 one and so much better than the $10 version. But don't you dare trot out the nasty words "double blind test" unless you'd like to hear semi-religious rants on how they're both useless but also easily passed by the golden ears who know every nuance of Fleetwood Mac's oeuvre.

On the other hand, nobody is claiming that a fancy keyboard makes for a better typist or a finer writer. The aesthetics are what they are.