Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age • Hacker News Board

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#101

Post by hnal943 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:00 PM UTC

virgilp wrote: post #32

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

I wonder if it's "fixable", though. I come from a lower-middle-class family, so does my wife; we're upper-middle-class now. Our kids are nowhere near as "driven" as we were... but, to the extent that we can, of course we're going to use all our resources to make them more successful than they "deserve". It's basic human nature, yes the game is rigged, because if you come from a family that is both stable & well-off,…

It seems the best thing for a society to do is to promote stable families, since this is the indicator of success.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#102

Post by RobertRoberts » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:02 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #79

RobertRoberts wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not survivor bias because all my siblings are still alive and I was the only one that nearly didn't make it. I think it's a common enough situation where people who don't suffer enough to change their bad behavior continue in their bad behavior. To put it in extremes, if someone had a gun to their head right now, could they quit smoking? I'd say most people could. (some people are suicidal) I had a gun to my hea…

I agree with you, but the game is rigged in that those with a better pedigree learn things others do not. That realization came slowly over several years, no one likes to believe they have built-in inequities. But that's reality for you, you work with what you have. The people arguing against you, exactly what are they thinking? That we should outlaw parents giving their children an edge in life? They concentrate the…

>...those with a better pedigree learn things others do not

Yes, I agree completely. But what I learned from my own experience is that I could teach different things to my kids than I was taught. No one forced me to teach the same things.

And I agree there seems to be a general unfairness in the world. How to fix this seems like the hard part because of your other points. (force people to not help their kids?)

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#103

Post by malvosenior » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:04 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful.

There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modicum of effort.

I grew up asking everyone (friends, family, neighbors): Why won't you read book? Why do you "hate" math? Why are computers "for nerds"? Why do you spend all of your time watching football?

I'm now much more successful than the people who ignored or derided me during that time period.

Was it easy for me to get ahead? No. But it is possible; oh and I wasn't one of those people with parents who worked hard, a good family life or supportive community around me. I was on my own.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#104

Post by RobertRoberts » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:05 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #73

RobertRoberts wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not survivor bias because all my siblings are still alive and I was the only one that nearly didn't make it. I think it's a common enough situation where people who don't suffer enough to change their bad behavior continue in their bad behavior. To put it in extremes, if someone had a gun to their head right now, could they quit smoking? I'd say most people could. (some people are suicidal) I had a gun to my hea…

> It's not survivor bias because all my siblings are still alive and I was the only one that nearly didn't make it. Survival bias isn't (necessarily) literal. And you are ascribing your success (relative to your siblings) to drive developed from your rough times, not to a million other possible variables you're not aware of, and your story is just one case. It is survival bias, regardless of whether your analysis hap…

I will concede that only having my one data point presented seems to indicate that what I did to "save myself" won't work for everyone.

But don't you think that if everyone who smokes, if they quit today, all of them have a better chance at being healthier in the future? Maybe not all, but wouldn't their chances be greatly improved?

What is the difference between smoking and any other self destructive behavior people have?

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#105

Post by Dirlewanger » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #33

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

Here's a crazy idea. Instead of spending all that time and effort invalidating the opinion of those who have successfully made it out of those circumstances, why don't you ask them how they did it and what they think can be done to help those who haven't? The problem with keyboard warriors is that it isn't actually action. It's akin to the studies showing that people who talk about what they're going to do get the sa…

More often than not, it's by complete chance. There's tons of people that grow up in shitty circumstances that "have potential", and not all of them are going to live up to it. The most likely avenue is that a mentor of some kind entered the person's life (teacher, Boys & Girl's Club, etc.) that supported/push them to aim higher. Then X years later, they will feel oddly smug and say "well, if I can do it, then anyone can!" conveniently leaving out the pure luck they just happened to have.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#106

Post by JMTQp8lwXL » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #103

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of learning math or computers: it is their decision to make. A lot of those people won't care that you are more successful than them. They're content with just watching football: it's what they're choosing to do, after all.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#107

Post by neilv » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:17 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #103

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

> There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background).

One likely way to parse that is as a generalization of all poor people, which I think is inaccurate and harmful.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#108

Post by malvosenior » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:20 PM UTC

neilv wrote: post #107

malvosenior wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

> There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). One likely way to parse that is as a generalization of all poor people, which I think is inaccurate and harmful.

Anyone from a poor background will tell you that this is true in a shockingly large number of cases. Crab bucket mentality is real, bread and circuses are real and most of all anti-intellectualism is definitely real and a core tenant of modern lower class society.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#109

Post by malvosenior » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:21 PM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #106

malvosenior wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

If there's one thing I've learned in life, it's not your place to tell other people how to live. If they want to spend their days watching football, instead of learning math or computers: it is their decision to make. A lot of those people won't care that you are more successful than them. They're content with just watching football: it's what they're choosing to do, after all.

That's true, but it doesn't make sense for people like the parent I responded to to act as if people's own choices have no role in their condition.

If you want to spend all day, every day watching sports then it shouldn't be an issue if you don't get a head in life. It's a personal choice, but you can't have it both ways.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#110

Post by iherbig » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 4:24 PM UTC

malvosenior wrote: post #103

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

As one of those people (I didn't go to Stanford, but I did move a few rungs up the socioeconomic ladder), I take issue with your point. It's not helpful. There is definitely a culture of anti-intellectualism and escapism among the poor in the US (my background). Sure, the rich kids have it easy and it's super easy to sit around feeling bad about that but in many, many cases people could better themselves with a modic…

I think that what you are saying here doesn't necessarily serve as a counterpoint to the GP's point. Rather, it's only an additional piece of evidence. Where GP referred to things like a parent being sick serving as a downward pressure in the effort to improve one's circumstances the point is one of externalities which are not typically accounted for.

And in this case, the externality you're bringing up is that oftentimes being raised poor means you're being raised in an anti-intellectual environment. And that externality is something that a lot of poor people have to deal with.

It's another instance in which the game appears to be rigged against those from a poor background.