Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age • Hacker News Board

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#71

Post by dpq » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

cbames89 wrote: post #57

onion2k wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rigged isn't a fair word, it's just reality. It's only reality because people accept it. If we stop accepting it the reality can be changed. For example, for several hundred years many people accepted slavery and believed owning people was justifiable. When enough people decided not to accept that reality it was changed fairly quickly.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but reality exists independent of belief or acceptance. However, a belief in whether or not a person can change that reality at some future point, I think is a more accurate description of the quality you're describing.

While generally you are of course correct, this is not always the case. Some facets of reality have been willed/believed into existence. Nations and social orders are real, but only exist as long as people believe in them. For example, when in 1991 people stopped believing in the existence of the USSR, it was erased from the objective reality in a very brief span of time.

It can be similarly argued that the modern income/opportunity distribution owes its continues existence to the fact that enough people believe that it exists and is lawful.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#72

Post by onion2k » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

cbames89 wrote: post #57

onion2k wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rigged isn't a fair word, it's just reality. It's only reality because people accept it. If we stop accepting it the reality can be changed. For example, for several hundred years many people accepted slavery and believed owning people was justifiable. When enough people decided not to accept that reality it was changed fairly quickly.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but reality exists independent of belief or acceptance. However, a belief in whether or not a person can change that reality at some future point, I think is a more accurate description of the quality you're describing.

reality exists independent of belief or acceptance

I'm using the word in that sense of "The reality is that I can't afford to buy a Ferrari"; it's (sadly) true, but it could change in the future.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#73

Post by croon » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #70

croon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sympathize, I can't help but read this as an example of OP's first sentence (survival bias).

It's not survivor bias because all my siblings are still alive and I was the only one that nearly didn't make it. I think it's a common enough situation where people who don't suffer enough to change their bad behavior continue in their bad behavior. To put it in extremes, if someone had a gun to their head right now, could they quit smoking? I'd say most people could. (some people are suicidal) I had a gun to my hea…

> It's not survivor bias because all my siblings are still alive and I was the only one that nearly didn't make it.

Survival bias isn't (necessarily) literal. And you are ascribing your success (relative to your siblings) to drive developed from your rough times, not to a million other possible variables you're not aware of, and your story is just one case.

It is survival bias, regardless of whether your analysis happens to be true.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#74

Post by coldtea » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:28 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #35

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

>...the game is not rigged against those from poor backgrounds Rigged isn't a fair word, it's just reality. Also, as another commenter pointed out, there are people that are successful in a wide range of ways, money is just one of them. And those that had it easy early on often times don't do well later in life when things can get hard. Edit: I spent time on the streets as a teen (yes it affected me) but my siblings…

>Rigged isn't a fair word, it's just reality.

The universe and the laws of physics are "just" reality.

Other things, and especially society, is more like what we make them.

Our society and its functioning is not some god- or nature- handed immutable, it's something that we can change, update, fix, build upon etc (and of course, regress).

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#75

Post by celticmusic » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

dpq wrote: post #71

cbames89 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to be a bit pedantic, but reality exists independent of belief or acceptance. However, a belief in whether or not a person can change that reality at some future point, I think is a more accurate description of the quality you're describing.

While generally you are of course correct, this is not always the case. Some facets of reality have been willed/believed into existence. Nations and social orders are real, but only exist as long as people believe in them. For example, when in 1991 people stopped believing in the existence of the USSR, it was erased from the objective reality in a very brief span of time. It can be similarly argued that the modern in…

That is absolutely not what happened with the USSR.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#76

Post by coldtea » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:31 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #63

coldtea wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of spending all that time and effort invalidating the opinion of those who have successfully made it out of those circumstances, why don't you ask them how they did it and what they think can be done to help those who haven't? Don't worry about that, for the types I talk about, we get to hear "how they did it" at every chance they get to brag about it. People also hear "what they think can be done to help t…

You like to focus on extremes. The important question is how a person from poor background can move into middle class. Who becomes a billionaire is pretty irrelevant even if you are from well to do family your chances of making it to ,,, are still extremely low.

>The important question is how a person from poor background can move into middle class.

The important question for a society is how many persons of poor backgrounds move into middle class (and how many middle class persons fall into poverty).

And the answer should be systemic, not just about "laziness" and "lack of motivation" and so on, because that wont explain how some societies manage to have way less pour/homeless/etc and more middle class, and others fail at it. Or how the same society changes its ratios over time...

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#77

Post by coldtea » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

celticmusic wrote: post #50

coldtea wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of spending all that time and effort invalidating the opinion of those who have successfully made it out of those circumstances, why don't you ask them how they did it and what they think can be done to help those who haven't? Don't worry about that, for the types I talk about, we get to hear "how they did it" at every chance they get to brag about it. People also hear "what they think can be done to help t…

There's always reasons why the dismissal of those with the most insight is the "right" thing to do. It turns out human beings can rationalize a lot of things that ought not be rationalized.

Notice how you take for granted (that they have the "most insight") what you should prove...

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#78

Post by coldtea » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:33 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #25

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

I’m not sure what that has to do with the article. If you read it, the study starts at age 23 and only measures relative income drops.

>I’m not sure what that has to do with the article.

It doesn't. It has with the common responses to those type of articles.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#79

Post by celticmusic » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:36 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #70

croon wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I sympathize, I can't help but read this as an example of OP's first sentence (survival bias).

It's not survivor bias because all my siblings are still alive and I was the only one that nearly didn't make it. I think it's a common enough situation where people who don't suffer enough to change their bad behavior continue in their bad behavior. To put it in extremes, if someone had a gun to their head right now, could they quit smoking? I'd say most people could. (some people are suicidal) I had a gun to my hea…

I agree with you, but the game is rigged in that those with a better pedigree learn things others do not. That realization came slowly over several years, no one likes to believe they have built-in inequities.

But that's reality for you, you work with what you have.

The people arguing against you, exactly what are they thinking? That we should outlaw parents giving their children an edge in life?

They concentrate their efforts on the wrong things. And the solution is generational, teach children they can, and they will.

Re: Unsteady income in young adulthood linked to thinking problems in middle age

#80

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

RobertRoberts wrote: post #35

coldtea wrote: post #18

Cue the "I was from a poor family and I got into Stanford, everybody should be able to it" from people who don't understand how life, statistics, outliers, and relative effort required (for a middle/class rich kid playing in "easy mode" to succeed, versus a poor kid playing the "extra hard mode"). People who confuse what's possible but 10x more difficult for some income groups/backgrounds, to be the same as being equ…

>...the game is not rigged against those from poor backgrounds Rigged isn't a fair word, it's just reality. Also, as another commenter pointed out, there are people that are successful in a wide range of ways, money is just one of them. And those that had it easy early on often times don't do well later in life when things can get hard. Edit: I spent time on the streets as a teen (yes it affected me) but my siblings…

> Rigged isn't a fair word, it's just reality.

It is reality, but rigged is a perfectly accurate word, including the implication that this is a deliberate and actively preserved design element and not an accident.

> Also, as another commenter pointed out, there are people that are successful in a wide range of ways, money is just one of them

And virtually all of them are rigged against people with poor backgrounds.

> And those that had it easy early on often times don't do well later in life when things can get hard.

Not as often as those who didn't have it easy early on don't do well later, or simply don't even make it to later in the first place.