Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists • Hacker News Board

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#21

Post by shadowgoat » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:01 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

While I mostly agree you, I think “never valid” is a bit extreme. My uncle was hit by a drunk driver that turned left into his lane at the last minute on a straight road.

These type of incidents, which are rare and can’t be avoided, is why I took my bike off the road and only take it to the track.

Maybe the first rule of riding is “it’s not the safest form of transportation and you must accept the risk”?

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#22

Post by nguoi » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:05 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #5

My first thought was that the motorcyclist in the picture almost deserves to be hit for driving illegally and dangerously between two cars - ie lane splitting. But from the comments, it does seem to be legal some places. But, in all other states in the US besides CA, it is explicitly illegal. It still seems unsafe even it is legal.

And that's how people usually react when someone is hit on 2 wheeled vehicle: trying to find a reason the rider deserved it.

It's built into the language of articles about crashes too. You'll see 'it is not known if the rider was wearing a helmet'[1] without any similar remarks about the driver of the car. Or the oxymoronic 'police are still investigating the accident'[2].

[1] I wrote this, then searched to find an example. Here: https://www.mlive.com/news/saginaw/2018/05/vehicle_crashes_i...

[2] As above. No action being taken, yet they know it's an accident. Written 2 hours ago. https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/burton/burton-bridge-crash-...

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#23

Post by imglorp » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:06 PM UTC

There's a second factor at work beyond memory - it's the human visual perceptive system. Bikes are not always moving across the visual field, and they aren't fitting the pattern of a bigger single-color smooth object so it's effectively camouflage.

This is an outstanding vid on the whole subject illustrating the problem and some avoidance methods. This should be taught in rider training but it's not (US).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqQBubilSXU

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#24

Post by taneq » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

shadowgoat wrote: post #21

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

While I mostly agree you, I think “never valid” is a bit extreme. My uncle was hit by a drunk driver that turned left into his lane at the last minute on a straight road. These type of incidents, which are rare and can’t be avoided, is why I took my bike off the road and only take it to the track. Maybe the first rule of riding is “it’s not the safest form of transportation and you must accept the risk”?

I see your point and there are some things that as a rider you could never be expected to anticipate, like your example where the drunk driver swerved at the last minute. (Even more defensible cases include things like "the control arm broke and the car instantly swerved across 3 lanes of traffic" which actually happened a few years ago in my city, if that happens you just gotta accept that $deity is out to get you).

I'd amend it to "anything that you could reasonably have anticipated is your fault, including people pulling out in front of you, cars changing lanes as if you weren't there, etc."

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#25

Post by Japhy_Ryder » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:09 PM UTC

shadowgoat wrote: post #21

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

While I mostly agree you, I think “never valid” is a bit extreme. My uncle was hit by a drunk driver that turned left into his lane at the last minute on a straight road. These type of incidents, which are rare and can’t be avoided, is why I took my bike off the road and only take it to the track. Maybe the first rule of riding is “it’s not the safest form of transportation and you must accept the risk”?

I've always liked "Ride like everyone else is trying to kill you, because they are."

Myself, I'm a cyclist, but a lot of motorcycle rules and bike rules overlap.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#26

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:12 PM UTC

taneq wrote: post #18

As a motorcyclist and defensive driver I find these kind of articles worrying, because they imply that riders are rolling around trusting other people not to hit them. The first rule of motorcycling, that you accept when you swing your leg over a bike, is that no matter whose fault any collision might be, it is your responsibility and yours alone to anticipate and avoid all such incidents. "But he pulled out in front…

[deleted]

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#27

Post by ebg13 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:14 PM UTC

upofadown wrote: post #19

>But he also found that participants were much more likely to miss the motorcyclist than the car driver. Drivers have to sort threats in terms of risk. Cycles, motorized or not, are simply not as much of a threat as cars/trucks. So it makes sense that they would fall off the bottom first. Cars are dangerous to things that are less dangerous than cars and it is inherent I think. At some point we are going to have to s…

> Drivers have to sort threats in terms of risk...At some point we are going to have to stop blaming the driver for stuff like this

Missing from your response is that there are both risks FROM and risks TO. We absolutely need to blame dangerous drivers for failing to prioritize the second category.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#28

Post by taneq » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:16 PM UTC

Japhy_Ryder wrote: post #25

shadowgoat wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I mostly agree you, I think “never valid” is a bit extreme. My uncle was hit by a drunk driver that turned left into his lane at the last minute on a straight road. These type of incidents, which are rare and can’t be avoided, is why I took my bike off the road and only take it to the track. Maybe the first rule of riding is “it’s not the safest form of transportation and you must accept the risk”?

I've always liked "Ride like everyone else is trying to kill you, because they are." Myself, I'm a cyclist, but a lot of motorcycle rules and bike rules overlap.

Definitely, the common theme is you're on the outside of the vehicle and any impact is gonna be really personal.

I actually feel far safer on a motorcycle than a push bike, because I have much bigger contact patches, far better brakes, stickier tyres and the ability to out-accelerate almost any kind of trouble. I'm also wearing at least half leathers and a proper full face helmet.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#29

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:18 PM UTC

nguoi wrote: post #22

scarface74 wrote: post #5

My first thought was that the motorcyclist in the picture almost deserves to be hit for driving illegally and dangerously between two cars - ie lane splitting. But from the comments, it does seem to be legal some places. But, in all other states in the US besides CA, it is explicitly illegal. It still seems unsafe even it is legal.

And that's how people usually react when someone is hit on 2 wheeled vehicle: trying to find a reason the rider deserved it. It's built into the language of articles about crashes too. You'll see 'it is not known if the rider was wearing a helmet'[1] without any similar remarks about the driver of the car. Or the oxymoronic 'police are still investigating the accident '[2]. [1] I wrote this, then searched to find an…

And that's how people usually react when someone is hit on 2 wheeled vehicle: trying to find a reason the rider deserved it.

If I’m in a car and disobey the traffic laws and get in an accident with someone who was following the law - by definition, I’m at fault.

Re: Lethal memory fail: Why drivers see, and then forget motorcyclists

#30

Post by scarface74 » Fri, Oct 04, 2019, 1:21 PM UTC

theboulevardier wrote: post #20

scarface74 wrote: post #5

My first thought was that the motorcyclist in the picture almost deserves to be hit for driving illegally and dangerously between two cars - ie lane splitting. But from the comments, it does seem to be legal some places. But, in all other states in the US besides CA, it is explicitly illegal. It still seems unsafe even it is legal.

Lane splitting is generally quite safe if: a) Other motorists are expecting it and paying attention and b) The motorcyclist isn't going much faster than other traffic (if I remember correctly, where I live the law is that you shouldn't go more than 15mph above the speed of the traffic). I used to lane split when I had a motorcycle as the highway traffic was terrible for my morning commute and it was generally fine, t…

a) Other motorists are expecting it and paying attention and

In jurisdictions where it is illegal, why should a motorist any more “expect it” than they should expect a car to do any other illegal behavior? Of course safe driving 101, is that certain common behaviors you should expect.