Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#101

Post by thrwy_01 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

CharlesColeman wrote: post #84

thewholeview wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the perspective, I will openly admit that my understanding of freedom of speech is lacking/different than others' understanding. I think what's interesting is the idea behind. Either your example or my example of freedom of speech is purely political, which we must recognize. Let's take a step back and consider a company. The management sets up an orderly system (or so they think). If the company is progre…

> To many of those in China who do not wish to practice in politics, especially since the Communist has produced an unprecedented growth in the last decade The Communists certainly take credit for that growth, but did they cause it? > What's being preached often in the western world however, is a utilization of a "lack of freedom of speech" as a weaponry towards an uprising China that will threaten US's dominance. Th…

I think we would do well to explain to our Chinese friends what we mean by the communist party taking credit for the economic success of China. For one, the latest and most pronounced grown spurt of the last ~20 years coincides with the admission of China to the wto, under the support of the USA, with the explicit understanding that china would liberalize it's economy and in general, play fairly. Seeing this exchange as a zero sum game has benefited china even more in the short term at the detriment of others, although Western naivete has been changing.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#102

Post by djdjjdjdj » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:13 PM UTC

alasdair_ wrote: post #77

plazmaphyujin wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a total misunderstanding of freedom of speech and the first amendment. Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say anything to anyone and never face consequences for your choices. The concept of freedom is to be free from the government officially and legally restricting your right to publicly address your grievances. China's citizens do not have this freedom. Just because taxi drivers are not afraid…

>People may hate you and retaliate against you in America for what you say, but they cannot and will never arrest you. Edward Snowden is in exile because of the things he had to say about America. The publishers of his book are being sued to ensure he is financially crippled and unable to support himself. Sure, the charge is something other than speaking but the effect is the same. I'm sure in China people who are ar…

> Edward Snowden is in exile because of the things he had to say about America

This is a false comparison. Edward Snowden is in exile for revealing state secrets. That’s different from freedom of speech. He is not targeted because of what he said, but revealing state secrets. It’s distinct from freedom of speech.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#103

Post by thrwy_01 » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:19 PM UTC

malandrew wrote: post #7

loceng wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. They've been educated about history and understand what's at stake. I wish the rest of democratic societies would already be taking a strong stand with them. The tyrannical powers in control of China at the moment, much like Trump's rise, will be countered at the HK situations wakens us to the behaviour of China's tyrants until now relative limited light being shone on their bad behaviours. Edit: Especially c…

It’s probably mentioning Trump that gets you downvoted. He definitely leans authoritarian on many issues, but so do most of the democrats he’s running against in 2020. Where these two flavors of authoritarian differ is the issues they are authoritarian on. Whether or not someone downvotes you probably has most to do with which issues they are most concerned about with respect to the authoritarian we get. If someone i…

I think we need to understand why the Chinese government "is never wrong" from a cultural context. In traditional east Asian culture the patriarch / Lord / boss is never wrong. The same power dynamics of government exist at every level of society. The superior owes some responsibility to the subordinate but (in practice) ultimately is not accountable, which lends itself to a corruption of power.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#104

Post by djdjjdjdj » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #99

thewholeview wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, th…

I don't understand why people are down voting this comment, as I think it is an accurate reflection of what many mainland Chinese would consider an honest and balanced opinion. When the primary goal of the last generation has been stability and the promotion of economic growth over personal freedoms and liberties, this is probably the opinion many non Chinese would have when placed in a similar situation. This does n…

People are downvoting it because he presented a misrepresentation of freedom of speech. Please read the adjacent comment by the other user which explains freedom of speech.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#105

Post by dang » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:35 PM UTC

lammasass wrote: post #92

CharlesColeman wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It really feels like democracy is slowly dying all over the world. If it seems that way, it's because we've stopped fighting for it. Any regime without some basic level of true democratic representation and civil liberties should be the subject of official embargoes and individual boycotts. Unfortunately, many have sold out democracy to please the all-important shareholders or just to take advantage of cheap stuff.

Good luck fighting for democracy in the us. Wondering how soon will you get beaten by the police if you did the same as the hk people do?

We've banned this account for using HN primarily for nationalistic arguments. That's against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#106

Post by knzhou » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

PavlovsCat wrote: post #98

knzhou wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See, the problem is that these slogans work for all sides. People want to group up and go out to "fight for glory" against the hated enemy. That natural instinct is what the commenter I was replying to was feeling. It's what we felt when we joined WWII, and it's also what the Axis citizens felt when they started WWII . It is what the Union soldiers felt and also what the Confederate soldiers felt . It is the same imp…

If you see no more than "slogans" in that, that's on you. > People want to group up and go out to "fight for glory" against the hated enemy. No. Speak for yourself. You simply and repeatedly omit the part about the moral dimension, and fighting against injustice, a person or nation becoming the enemy just because of what they did to others. Would you want to be put into a concentration camp just for the sadistic fanc…

> No. Speak for yourself. You simply and repeatedly omit the part about the moral dimension, and fighting against injustice, a person or nation becoming the enemy just because of what they did to others.

I've been on the other side of this sloganeering. I'd say I'm a relatively patriotic American. I recently went to Europe and talked with a lot of very liberal Europeans, and they asked me precisely the same questions. To them, America had long ago become the enemy just because of what they did to others. They put kids in cages. They flagrantly violate international law. Their healthcare and police systems kill their own citizens just for the sadistic fancy of others. How could I live in such a terrible country, they asked me, and not spend every moment trying to leave or overthrow its government? Didn't I know that America had no respect for human rights?

The problem was that their favored news sources were incredibly biased, reporting nothing but the worst events happening in America, and ascribing the worst possible motivations to all Americans. They had literally heard about nothing good happening in my country in years.

That's the kind of distortion you get if you listen to stories for only one side. In that kind of bubble, you can be convinced that any group is morally reprehensible. That's why so many people enthusiastically signed up for the Nazi party so many decades ago. That's why I met Europeans that think America is its successor.

If the narratives you hear are so one-sided that you can't ascribe any motivations to your enemies besides pure hatred, then you don't understand what is actually going on. Think about the number of news stories you have read that attempt to paint a group in a bad light. Divide this by the number that try to paint it in a good light. If this ratio is worse than 10:1, then you never actually made a moral choice -- your emotions were decided for you by editorial slant.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#107

Post by hajile » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:05 PM UTC

thewholeview wrote: post #44

calderarrow wrote: post #25

During the American revolutionary war, France was a tremendous ally and instrumental to the colonies’ secession from Britain. The Marquis de Lafayette came over to fight for us, without pay, in his early 20s, forgoing his family’s desires and aristocratic opportunities. His family was so opposed to him going to the colonies, that local governments were involved in finding and preventing him from boarding ships. He ev…

While I have full respect for you to preach what you believe in, I'd like to urge the consideration for a detachment of promotion for democracy with regards to morality. Whichever mode of governance is simple a practice of value proposition that a particular regime sees as fit for their particular regional control/political reign. While democracy has its ostensible upsides, is such a protest at length really what's o…

China has imprisoned over a million Muslims for crimes they "might commit in the future". Their concentration camps are so full, they are adding buildings to hold tens of thousands more every month.

They persecute, torture, and imprison millions of Falun Gong practicers simply because of their religious beliefs (peaceful beliefs I might add). It's been estimated that 65,000 were killed for their organs between 2000 and 2008 (and many more since then). Some alleged eyewitnesses claim the people are cut apart with anesthetic to prevent possible damage to the tissue (the same thing is done in the US, but the patient is brain dead instead of being in extreme agony).

Then there is the Tiananmen Massacre. People tried to speak out. Millions of people in cities all over the country. Even the local soldiers refused to do anything, so the government spent a while braining and hyper-indoctrinating troops from the far provinces to come in and start butchering the dissenters.

Faced with such deaf ears and manifest brutality, protests hardly seem to be extreme measures. They'd obviously rather have a little debate with democracy than the so-called peace resulting from China's evil persecution and butchery.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-concentrationca...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#108

Post by loceng » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

thrwy_01 wrote: post #103

malandrew wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s probably mentioning Trump that gets you downvoted. He definitely leans authoritarian on many issues, but so do most of the democrats he’s running against in 2020. Where these two flavors of authoritarian differ is the issues they are authoritarian on. Whether or not someone downvotes you probably has most to do with which issues they are most concerned about with respect to the authoritarian we get. If someone i…

I think we need to understand why the Chinese government "is never wrong" from a cultural context. In traditional east Asian culture the patriarch / Lord / boss is never wrong. The same power dynamics of government exist at every level of society. The superior owes some responsibility to the subordinate but (in practice) ultimately is not accountable, which lends itself to a corruption of power.

Except in practice "all of us" learn through experience that there is a different better way, assuming someone's learning isn't stunted early, along with obedience taught - preventing learning and critical thinking development necessary to contrast different possibilities.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#109

Post by hkmaxpro » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:13 PM UTC

calderarrow wrote: post #25

During the American revolutionary war, France was a tremendous ally and instrumental to the colonies’ secession from Britain. The Marquis de Lafayette came over to fight for us, without pay, in his early 20s, forgoing his family’s desires and aristocratic opportunities. His family was so opposed to him going to the colonies, that local governments were involved in finding and preventing him from boarding ships. He ev…

HKer here. Thank you for standing with HK!

How to help HK protests from abroad: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cv0ws4/how_can_yo...

Other ways to help include boycotting products made in China.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#110

Post by squarefoot » Thu, Oct 03, 2019, 10:46 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #87

squarefoot wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't close because they don't need to at the moment. All "western" nations populations have been divided and conquered long time ago so that for every group of righties/lefties protesting down the street there's an opposed lefties/righties countering group somewhere making the news, so that for any 50% of the population the enemy becomes the other 50%, not the rulers, and thanks to well crafted propaganda the…

The scenario you paint here would only be true if a society's population truly were "enemies" and holding very different human beliefs, wants - which fortunately isn't the case - because the people of a nation evolve together generally; the problem arises when you mix two different people from different nations with different cultures, where this "50/50" destructive behaviour can exist - say when the native Americans…

"Otherwise you paint an unrealistic, bleak picture which isn't grounded in reality if there's optimism and humanity included."

True, still many western countries had examples of episodic police brutality causing tortures [1] and fatalities among protestors, and probably it was other people humanity and optimism, along with public outrage, to keep these events episodic. But the point is: what happens if after the first protestor dies the crowd doesn't disperse and the public is too distracted? I don't see either police or the military saying "oh sorry, we pushed it too much... feel free to continue but please don't smash windows". I also see as a revealing sign of corruption the almost ubiquitous police immunity: keeping them untouchable is what ensures their total alignment to the higher powers.

[1] plenty of examples in the 60s, also search for "genoa 2001 diaz": the Wikipedia article sums up pretty well what happened, and there are some rather graphic videos around showing it. That carnage, whose most explicit videos needed some time before surfacing, didn't make the news globally as it should have probably for happening less than 2 months before 9/11, an event which obviously hit the reset button on just about everything.