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Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

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Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#231

The claim of catching 99% of activity is really hard to justify. In many detection systems you cannot know your true number of false negatives. It's inherently unknowable in this case. A better metric would be mean time to detection for a given CEP sharer or perhaps a metric around how much CEP is shared before detection, or perhaps a metric for network size of CEP and how well FB can clean up an entire network at on…

Well, why bring privacy into the fray at all?

I'm not saying online systems for catching child abuse can't be implemented. But is it really where our efforts would be most effective?

The question should be: how do you combat child abuse?

For that, we need:

1- Strong reporting systems that connect the people who in contact with children (doctors, teachers, social workers) and centralize and distribute that information. Right now, a social worker doesn't know about the doctor or teacher reports very easily.

2- Then, we need strong systems for handling the situation: i.e. social workers with effective systems for intervention.

3- Then, we need strong systems to take the children that are removed from at risk situations and place them in safe places where they can recover and grow in a healthy environment. This is the foster care system and the national health care system (or lack thereof) that will provide mental health counseling for the affected children.

Given that 1, 2 and 3 of these systems are terribly dysfunctional if not mostly broken, I'm always skeptical when people talk about social media and child protection. The situation gives me a feeling of leaders justifying the erosion of privacy and those who are authoritarian inclined supporting them, rather than people really caring about protecting children.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#233
post #147
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Note, this article is recent and highly relevant.. Talk about fear mongering, that article is horrible. It's the same old argument. "Child abuse is bad therefore you can't have any privacy", they position you as being against protecting children when your stance is actually pro security & privacy.

I think that reasonable people can hold both f̶a̶c̶t̶s̶ things in their heads at the same time 1. Privacy is important and good 2. It has almost certainly contributed to an explosion in the production and sharing of child pornography and abuse The question is what is the moral way to reconcile the two, not to deny that either exists.

Great points. It definitely seems to me that those two are fundamentally opposites. Suppose we champion (1), then with perfect privacy gives a lot of leeway for criminals to commit crimes such as those you stated and more without being able to detect that they did them.

However, without perfect privacy, every world citizen would be subjected to such monitoring, and we'll basically be exactly what 1984 is, with the metaphorical "telescreen" functionality spread across pretty much every device that's connected to a network.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read that as 99% of activity that is caught on Facebook is caught by Facebook's systems, with law enforcement only catching 1%.

That's still not an especially resounding success, or an especially relevant metric for us to understand the efficacy of FB's detection systems, and doesn't help us understand whether encryption of content is going to hurt hunting CEP. For example, they might be spotting a large fraction via network analysis, or other metadata approaches. Alternatively, they might just hash every image sent over messenger and match t…

> encryption of content is going to hurt hunting CEP.

Aren't we putting the cart before the horse? The problem is the exploitation of children, the secondary problem is that this exploitation is sometimes photographed and shared.

I don't believe that a strong solution the latter problem will have any impact on the former.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#235

> We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety. Oh, so you’re asking for more end-to-end encryption? > While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content t…

Coincidentally, the same day HN gets this story ABC News is reporting that...

Congress was provided “encrypted text messages [the top US diplomat in Ukraine] exchanged with two other American diplomats in September regarding aid money President Donald Trump ordered to be held back from Ukraine.”

Might the AG also want to monitor these messages?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/top-diplomat-ukraine-crazy-w...

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#236
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

99% of domestic disturbances happen in private homes. Should they put cameras there, too?

It's called "Telescreen" and will be soon available.

because nobody seemed to get the reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescreen

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#237
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You are partially right but the issue is that E2E isn't even enough. E2E doesn't matter if they force a patched binary that also sends the data to the government. This is EXACTLY what the Australian laws saws they must do, oh and it is a gag order so they can't disclose it. > I'm starting to wonder if this is a smokescreen. Eventually give in to E2E because you know you have got app store signing keys for the apps…

On iOS, you can disable automatic app updates in the Settings.

Some apps (like Signal) force you to upgrade or they eventually stop working. It's a terrible practice.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a parent, I reject this disingenuous pretense of concern for "the children". Folks are eager to invoke children to justify the surveillance state while conveniently forgetting the plight of children when it comes to concentration camps, poverty, and climate change. Secondly, children themselves have frequently been the victim of surveillance abuses and there is no reason to suspect that this instance will be any d…

Yeah considering the profoundly terrible conditions in the concentration camps this administration is holding children in, this seems a littlllleeee disingenuous.

This administration? Is that singular?

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#239
post #10

> While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content through its own systems, it also notes that "mere numbers cannot capture the significance of the harm to children." Ah yes, "think of the children!" This is so tired, I'm (just a bit) surprised they fell into this argument.

The joke is on "them" in our current day and age. The overwhelming majority that care about children are far more interested in gun safety than backdoors for the NRA backing party.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, you could always do an audit and see what percent of a thing your automated system catches. That definitely doesn't seem inherently unknowable.

You're not quite getting it. You measure accuracy of detection via a training set of definitely known examples, and comparing it to the detections reported by your system. You can say with certainty that their system catches 99% of your training data set, but that doesn't mean it Will generalize to "all permutations of child abuse ever". That's two totally different things. In the end their use of that statistic illu…

If I say 15% of cars in San Francisco are Subarus, are you going to say that's impossible to know? Sure it may be true in my dataset, "but that doesn't mean it will generalize to all possible permutations of [traffic] ever." Well, no shit. But that's not the statement being made.

If I wanted to know the accuracy of an important system. I'd do continual audits. Take a (stratified) sample of all things, get ground truth labels for whether they should have been detected, and see what percent were in fact detected. Then I could estimate how much my systems did and didn't catch at any point in time.

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