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Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

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Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#181

Post by IfOnlyYouKnew »

Kinnard wrote: post #91
saagarjha wrote: post #5

> We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety. Oh, so you’re asking for more end-to-end encryption? > While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content t…

The Second Great CryptoWar: https://reason.com/2013/03/12/the-second-great-crypto-war/ > "The proponents of this process use fear tactics to win support, what the four cypherpunks dub "The Four Horsemen of the Info-pocalypse: child pornography, terrorism, money laundering, and the War on Some Drugs." In other words, laws passed to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers, and drug dealers end up chi…

I'm not entirely sure how those four examples are supposedly invalidated by giving them a clever nickname.

I'll take the privacy side in most any discussion of privacy-vs-security, but categorically denying the possibility that some crimes could be aided by encryption seems a step to far.

It's also bad PR strategy: anybody not already on your side will be put off by your apparent lack of reasoning skills.

Instead, acknowledge the possibility and show them why you consider the benefits outweighing the risks.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#182

Post by danShumway »

> mere numbers cannot capture the significance of the harm to children.

Oh, bull crap. By this argument, literally no protection or liberty that allows even one child to be harmed could ever be tolerated. Why stop at vetting baby-sitters or teachers? We ought to require mandatory background checks for every person who ever visits a family or goes into a public space that might contain children. Law enforcement also ought to be able to track every underage child at all times, via mandatory GPS collars.

At the risk of sounding callous, there are occasionally some situations where you really do need to shut up and multiply.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#183

Post by ohithereyou »

closeparen wrote: post #142
bitL wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Image filtering is now trivial even using simple transfer learning, leading to >99% accuracy. It's just the training datasets might be super disgusting and question one's will to live when confronted with the savagery that is going on around the world.

How is it not a crime to possess the training set?

Should be simple enough to have the government/LEAs posses the training data and have a standard harness/workflow you integrate your training program to. Then you send your training peogram and get the resulting trained model files back.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#184

Post by tempestn »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #78
wonderwonder wrote: post #12

Sometimes I can understand the willingness to reduce the privacy of self and others in order to ensure that the law is able to prosecute those involved in heinous crimes. Our current political environment though involved a president openly calling on foreign governments to investigate his political opponents. What is to stop them from going after the private communications of those same opponents in the name of targe…

> Encrypt it, end to end, the government does not need to be able access all private communications of private citizens. Law enforcement and security agencies need to be able to access any communication. This does not mean that they should monitor all communications. They can eavesdrop on any phone call. They do not eavesdrop on all phone calls. The problem with E2E encryption is that it prevents eavesdropping even w…

The solution to this would be to compel the company to push an updated version of the app to the target device, and thereby intercept traffic only from the target of the warrant, while maintaining E2E encryption for everyone else. (Of course, some will complain that even this ability to surveil is too much, and all encrypted messaging should be open source to avoid this possibility, but to me it's far preferable to leaving open the potential of hoovering up everyone's communications.)

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#185

Post by mlindner »

kamyarg wrote: post #26
OedipusRex wrote: post #6

"We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety." Isn't the entire point of E2E Encryption for user safety, as in safety from the government reading your message?

True E2E Encryption would also mean the platform(FB, Telegram, Google, Apple, etc.) also can not read the messages and thus the law enforcement can not force them to reveal what a user said because it would be impossible for them to know.

Apple has true E2E encryption with iMessage if you don't turn on iCloud backup of your messages. It's encrypted when it leaves your device and decrypted on the receiving device. Furthermore the messages on your device are locked via passwords from the Secure Enclave.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#186

Post by naravara »

Kinnard wrote: post #91
saagarjha wrote: post #5

> We are writing to request that Facebook does not proceed with its plan to implement end-to-end encryption across its messaging services without ensuring that there is no reduction to user safety. Oh, so you’re asking for more end-to-end encryption? > While the letter acknowledges that Facebook, which owns Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, and Instagram, captures 99% of child exploitation and terrorism-related content t…

The Second Great CryptoWar: https://reason.com/2013/03/12/the-second-great-crypto-war/ > "The proponents of this process use fear tactics to win support, what the four cypherpunks dub "The Four Horsemen of the Info-pocalypse: child pornography, terrorism, money laundering, and the War on Some Drugs." In other words, laws passed to go after child pornographers, terrorists, money launderers, and drug dealers end up chi…

I feel like "money laundering" has given way to "human trafficking" among those horsemen, but this is otherwise right.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#187

Post by philwelch »

twinkletwinkle_ wrote: post #54
jacobush wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they just made that number up.

Is it made up? I thought they meant "Of content identified on Facebook, 99% was identified by Facebook's own systems". Not that Facebook captures 99% of terrorists. Just that it does the bulk of capturing terrorists _on Facebook_.

99% of all uses of the number “99%” are made up.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#189

Post by mlindner »

robrenaud wrote: post #118
eloff wrote: post #16

I hate these requests for government back doors into tech communication software in the name of "the children". Let the parents worry about and protect their own children. Let the government mind its own business and stay out of ours.

And if the parents are the abusers, then it's okay? I am still pro E2E encryption, especially given the Snowden revelations (the US gov cannot be trusted to be responsible), but it does come at a high cost. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/28/us/child-sex-...

The thought that people can remove all crime or get anywhere near it is faulty from first axioms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackstone%27s_ratio

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

If you start thinking that parents "can be" the criminals then you've decided that parents are automatically guilty and must be proved innocent. This goes against the very moral fiber of the entire western world theory of law, the presumption of innocence.

Re: Attorney General will ask Zuckerberg to halt plans for end-to-end encryption

#190

Post by sschueller »

dylan604 wrote: post #136
Brushfire wrote: post #11

If they don't do E2E, users will abandon Facebook for platforms that do support it (and already are). And they aren't doing this to commit crimes, but to prevent advertisements from targeting every conversation they've ever had.

Please name these other platforms

Telegram, threema, wire swiss, matrix, signal and many more.
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