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Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#71

Post by plazmaphyujin »

thewholeview wrote: post #60
kmonsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last c…

I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, th…

This is a total misunderstanding of freedom of speech and the first amendment.

Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say anything to anyone and never face consequences for your choices. The concept of freedom is to be free from the government officially and legally restricting your right to publicly address your grievances.

China's citizens do not have this freedom. Just because taxi drivers are not afraid to express themselves in the privacy of their cab to other citizens does not mean they wouldn't fear for their livelihood to say the same thing on a stage where it would actually make a difference.

True freedom of speech is this:

In America, anyone can stand in the middle of a public square and shout whatever they want about the government and the police will do nothing. Other people are then allowed to also shout and demonstrate that that person is an idiot, or maybe right, but the government never gets involved.

In China, any demonstration like this is swiftly punished by authorities. On an exchange trip I went on about ~10 years ago an American college student decided it was good idea to shout "Free Tibet!" over and over in the middle of Tiananmen square. An unmarked white van appeared in People may hate you and retaliate against you in America for what you say, but they cannot and will never arrest you.

That is freedom of speech.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#72

Post by rjbwork »

ethbro wrote: post #43
authoritarian wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, all us youngings reaping the rewards of those that have come before us. Insane housing and real estate prices that few can afford, insane university tuition that few can afford, the pharmaceutical industry pushing dangerous drugs with impunity, the war on drugs costing trillions of dollars and leading to the militarization of police and a massive amount of incarcerated non-violent offenders, the destruction o…

And what have we done about that? I'm technically Gen Y, and I'll be the first to admit that with regards to protesting my generation seems: - Uninformed - Undisciplined - Lazy - Uncoordinated People were self-organizing large civil society organizations and marching through clouds of tear gas and worse in the 1960-90s... and yet this current generation seems to think that posting a rant on Facebook is valuable? Inco…

Most of us just don't think we CAN do anything. It seems the world is run by the rich for the rich. We vote but we don't feel that anything we can do actually will effect any change.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#73

Post by squarefoot »

scohesc wrote: post #8
loceng wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. They've been educated about history and understand what's at stake. I wish the rest of democratic societies would already be taking a strong stand with them. The tyrannical powers in control of China at the moment, much like Trump's rise, will be countered at the HK situations wakens us to the behaviour of China's tyrants until now relative limited light being shone on their bad behaviours. Edit: Especially c…

Please don't compare the Chinese government's actions to the Trump administration. They're not even remotely close.

They aren't close because they don't need to at the moment. All "western" nations populations have been divided and conquered long time ago so that for every group of righties/lefties protesting down the street there's an opposed lefties/righties countering group somewhere making the news, so that for any 50% of the population the enemy becomes the other 50%, not the rulers, and thanks to well crafted propaganda the reasons for protesting usually reflect that. This is done on purpose of course. The day any western government fails at dividing people and does something that can unite all protesters is the day you will see police and the military shooting at people. In every country or culture the 1st rule for any government officer is protect the status quo at all cost (then picture as traitors whose who refuse to). People start to die when they no longer are lured into fighting against their peers, and both them and police (which now is seen rather as enemy than external player) refuse to back off.

Give people enough important motives to protest united against their government (that is, no food, no house, no jobs) and you will see bullets and corpses pretty soon, no matter their nationality/religion/color/sex/whatever. Maintaining the status quo at all costs against well motivated protesters always escalates into violence and deaths; it happened in 3rd world countries and in one of the most developed places in the world, why should we believe it can't happen to us?

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#74

Post by thewholeview »

plazmaphyujin wrote: post #71
thewholeview wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, th…

This is a total misunderstanding of freedom of speech and the first amendment. Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say anything to anyone and never face consequences for your choices. The concept of freedom is to be free from the government officially and legally restricting your right to publicly address your grievances. China's citizens do not have this freedom. Just because taxi drivers are not afraid…

Thanks for the perspective, I will openly admit that my understanding of freedom of speech is lacking/different than others' understanding.

I think what's interesting is the idea behind. Either your example or my example of freedom of speech is purely political, which we must recognize.

Let's take a step back and consider a company. The management sets up an orderly system (or so they think). If the company is progressing well, everyone is working towards a common goal, would there be a need to have people standing up to voice their opinions to influence others which they can't even claim righteousness to? Sure it's freedom, but I'm sure less would need it. When the company goes downhill however, and people want to uprise and cause a change, this is where having this freedom appears to be a necessity.

I think inherently there is a discussion hidden here somewhere between order and chaos. And with everything being a spectrum, we must recognize that the level of "freedom" people will need, and people should have will also need to vary depending on the current state of existence.

To many of those in China who do not wish to practice in politics, especially since the Communist has produced an unprecedented growth in the last decade, little are finding a need for such a level of "freedom". Sure this system will not be perpetual functional. When the economic growth slows or when China becomes a super power level entity, global clashes causes ideology shifts and needs, China may need to continually seek a structural shift in its own pace.

What's being preached often in the western world however, is a utilization of a "lack of freedom of speech" as a weaponry towards an uprising China that will threaten US's dominance. There is nothing wrong with that, it's only a bit hypocritical that's all, but thus is politics.

I think what's important is that, if HK must feel like they will need the fight, then I respect the fight and wishes them best on achieving what they can. Though I do at the same time wish for a peaceful resolution versus a degraded society after an endless fight to achieve a perceived ideal ideology. I have friends in HK and I definitely wish for them to prosper.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#75

Post by squarefoot »

salawat wrote: post #37
echelon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this is fascinating. Some of the topics: > Techniques for dilution, misdirection and control of a internet forum.. > Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation I knew this was done, but this is essentially the guide book. Jeez. I'm curious though - why didn't you directly link to it?

Because the last few threads I did I'd be near instantly downvote bombed and flagged. Particularly in Hong Kong related threads. Spread it far and wide. Never let anyone stop the Signal.

"Because the last few threads I did I'd be near instantly downvote bombed and flagged."

Upvoted, just in case...

Anyway, that article comes #1 on DDG by searching that string both with or without quotes.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#76

Post by sixothree »

kmonsen wrote: post #53
sixothree wrote: post #12

I think it odd that we have to look at another country losing its rights to understand the feeling of loss. Much of what they have been doing in Hong Kong would never have been allowed here in America.

Can you come with some concrete examples of what would have not been allowed? The US is still a very free country with robust freedom of speech and mostly fair and open court cases.

I don't know of any places in America where you can protest wearing a mask. Even if you are "legally" allowed to, I don't believe the police would allow it.

Protesters in America need permission from the government. If we were to block roads like they are doing in Hong Kong it would spell certain disaster. More than a few places offer legal protection to people who run over protesters with their vehicle.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#77

Post by alasdair_ »

plazmaphyujin wrote: post #71
thewholeview wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, th…

This is a total misunderstanding of freedom of speech and the first amendment. Freedom of speech does not mean you are free to say anything to anyone and never face consequences for your choices. The concept of freedom is to be free from the government officially and legally restricting your right to publicly address your grievances. China's citizens do not have this freedom. Just because taxi drivers are not afraid…

>People may hate you and retaliate against you in America for what you say, but they cannot and will never arrest you.

Edward Snowden is in exile because of the things he had to say about America. The publishers of his book are being sued to ensure he is financially crippled and unable to support himself.

Sure, the charge is something other than speaking but the effect is the same. I'm sure in China people who are arrested for speaking out are not charged with the crime of "free speech" either but are instead charged with some other crime. The effect is similar.

I'm still happy to live in the USA over China but I still think that we can do better on this front.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#78

Post by j8014 »

thewholeview wrote: post #60
kmonsen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people of HK have tried other more peaceful approaches in the past and have received nothing in return from Beijing. Do you have any propositions of what citizens of HK, or China, can do to get more freedoms like freedom of speech or from random arrests on trumped up charges which is how the current situation started? I don't think anyone in HK want to be in this situation but for many they see it as a last c…

I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, th…

> I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective.

What utter nonsense.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#79

Post by colejohnson66 »

jlmorton wrote: post #57
kmonsen wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you come with some concrete examples of what would have not been allowed? The US is still a very free country with robust freedom of speech and mostly fair and open court cases.

If protesters in the US were throwing petrol bombs, the police in the US would begin shooting people en masse. If there were months of mass protests in the US, the national guard would be called in to stop them, with full military equipment. This is what happened in Ferguson, for instance, and the police there did shoot and kill at least one protester. What happens domestically, we refer to as riots. What happens int…

IMO, once you are no longer peaceful, you are rioting. You can’t claim to be protesting if you’re running around lighting cars on fire because you’re harming innocent bystanders. Once you harm someone who is not involved, you’re rioting.

Re: Hong Kong protests: Authorities to announce face mask ban

#80

Post by thewholeview »

j8014 wrote: post #78
thewholeview wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. If you go to China you would find very little consideration for a lack of freedom of speech aside from a few radicals whose mission is to cause turbulence to the existing regime. In Beijing, you can walk in many taxis and hear the driver blabber on to no end regarding the state of existence in China and state defamatory words regarding the Communist, th…

> I think the concept of "freedom of speech" is highly subjective. What utter nonsense.

Thanks for the opinion, care to expand on it to help educate?
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