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Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

muckrock.com

41–46 of 46 posts

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#41

Would it be safe to say that CIA (and NSA and other parts of the intelligence community) is the actual "State within the State" (i.e., the so-called "Deep State")? "National security", almost at any cost, became the paramount prerogative of US intelligence agencies. However, they seem to be using a military criteria in a civil environment, which was supposed to be transparent enough for accountability.

I'd argue today's situation is, despite many problems, still comparatively better than the past: the Hoover era, as the most salient example, was vastly more corrupt and undemocratic. It's crucial in this regard to distinguish two issues: (a) to what degree do these institutions wield power unchecked by democratically-elected/legitimized institutions (President/Congress/Courts), and (b) those institutions commanding…

> there is still at least _some_ accountability

The whistleblowers mostly got put into prison for the current executive branch to save face. At least those that we heard about from. There also weren't any repercussions for the mass surveillance we are still subjected to.

I don't think there is evidence of the situation improving at all. This is not a problem confined to America and these specific agencies, of course.

The state having access to all forms of digital communication is a too powerful tool to suppress democratic dissent and I think we have recently seen bad actors in leading positions. The security benefits these mechanisms provide are marginal, so regulation should be the rational way to go.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The federal government has the power to classify information because it owns it. The primary purpose of a state is to preserve itself. The ability to control access to secrets is critical to this. It's a bit like asking "What gives the government the right to execute the laws?" Because that's what it's meant to do.

That’s not the primary purpose of government in the United States. And that’s not how government derives the right to execute laws in the United States. We govern ourselves. The government is given the right to execute laws by the people who vote. The Bill of Rights clarified that any other rights are reserved by the people. Additionally, most federal information is public domain and owned by the people. That’s why F…

The United States government classification system is established under Executive Order 13526, the latest in a long series of executive orders on the topic. Issued by President Barack Obama in 2009, Executive Order 13526 replaced earlier executive orders on the topic and modified the regulations codified to 32 C.F.R. 2001. It lays out the system of classification, declassification, and handling of national security information generated by the U.S. government and its employees and contractors, as well as information received from other governments.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#43

Would it be safe to say that CIA (and NSA and other parts of the intelligence community) is the actual "State within the State" (i.e., the so-called "Deep State")? "National security", almost at any cost, became the paramount prerogative of US intelligence agencies. However, they seem to be using a military criteria in a civil environment, which was supposed to be transparent enough for accountability.

I'd argue today's situation is, despite many problems, still comparatively better than the past: the Hoover era, as the most salient example, was vastly more corrupt and undemocratic. It's crucial in this regard to distinguish two issues: (a) to what degree do these institutions wield power unchecked by democratically-elected/legitimized institutions (President/Congress/Courts), and (b) those institutions commanding…

The CIA is still torturing people and is currently headed by a known torturer.

https://www.therenditionproject.org.uk/documents/RDI/190710-...

I don't think you can honestly say 'things are fine compared to Hoovers time'.

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#44
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not the primary purpose of government in the United States. And that’s not how government derives the right to execute laws in the United States. We govern ourselves. The government is given the right to execute laws by the people who vote. The Bill of Rights clarified that any other rights are reserved by the people. Additionally, most federal information is public domain and owned by the people. That’s why F…

The United States government classification system is established under Executive Order 13526, the latest in a long series of executive orders on the topic. Issued by President Barack Obama in 2009, Executive Order 13526 replaced earlier executive orders on the topic and modified the regulations codified to 32 C.F.R. 2001. It lays out the system of classification, declassification, and handling of national security i…

Right, but what's the constitutional basis for those laws, regulations, and executive orders?

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States government classification system is established under Executive Order 13526, the latest in a long series of executive orders on the topic. Issued by President Barack Obama in 2009, Executive Order 13526 replaced earlier executive orders on the topic and modified the regulations codified to 32 C.F.R. 2001. It lays out the system of classification, declassification, and handling of national security i…

Right, but what's the constitutional basis for those laws, regulations, and executive orders?

The preamble of the EO only says: by the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America

Re: Secrecy, overclassification, and the the CIA’s hidden history

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If USA government employees are more accountable than China government employees, China wins!

I doubt US Department of Agriculture or Department of Education operate abroad or have human rights issues to FOIA, you can try. > If USA government employees are more accountable than China government employees, China wins! "Transparency and accountability in foreign policy/information gathering only applies to the country with a FOIA system conveniently available and uses english!"

ITT we're complaining about "overclassification" and other sins of USA's unsupervised services. (I hadn't been familiar with the atrocities in Indonesia linked by TFA...) We're not sure what you're on about. Do you mean that China and other nations have not respected human rights? We all agree. What else do you intend to say? Do you really think that "US journalists evangelize Snowden and Assange"? If that were the case, surely a name-brand media firm like WaPo, NYT, MSNBC, FoxNews, CNN, etc. would have published such evangelizing in the last several years, but they haven't. Some smaller firms do mention them, but I note that TFA doesn't. Why have you introduced this red herring?
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