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Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

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Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was under the impression that Jews commonly don't think of themselves as being white whereas the rest of the 'white' groups did. In the Anglosphere, Jews have pretty much always been considered "white". For example, both the Confederacy and Apartheid South Africa, two regimes obsessed with racial classification, never even considered that Jews might not be white. The conception of Jews as a separate race, has his…

Jews were kicked out of numerous Western European countries throughout the Middle Ages and early modern era. I hardly think Eastern Europe has a monopoly on anti-Semitism.

Sure, but in a world dominated by the Christian church, isn't it possible that the discrimination was based more on religion than on race?

I don't remember where (help me, please!) but I read an account by a medieval European monk visiting monasteries and Christian communities in Africa. He described their religious practices, traditions, culture architecture and food in great detail, but mentioned their (certainly much darker) skin tones only in passing.

"Race" (boiled down to skin melanin contents) as a distinguishing point between groups of people is not a permanent fixture in human history. It is especially overwhelmed by religion, language and culture/tribal nationality in terms of its use as a dividing point between "us" and "them".

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#352
post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Kennedy is gone and was replaced by Kavanaugh. Kennedy was in the majority (pro-AA) in the 2016 case, and I would venture to guess (based on nothing more than the discussions in the legal circles I'm in) that Kavanaugh would not be as friendly to affirmative action as Kennedy was. If I were a betting man, I'd put the odds north of 2:1 that this will be overturned if the current SCOTUS sees it.

Kagan, an Obama nominee, skipped the Texas case. I think it'd be ruled the same way this time.

I would guess it would be 5-4 against Harvard, with Thomas, Alito, Kavanaugh, Gorsuch, and Roberts in the majority. Which one of these would you have ruling in favor of Harvard's AA plan?

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#354
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the difference being that white males hold institutional power in the United States, whereas that isn't true for Asian males (or females).

Well, not really. The California legislature (for example) is less than half white.[1] You could argue white males are overrepresented in some circumstances, but claiming white males hold institutional power exclusively (which is what you inferred) is just plain wrong. [1] https://www.library.ca.gov/Content/pdf/crb/reports/CRB_2017-...

Per your link, the CA Senate is 75% white.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#355
post #37

For perspective, here are the Harvard vs US demographics, sorted by most to least represented [1,2,3,4]: Jewish: 14.0% vs 2.6% (5.38x) Asian American: 25.3% vs 5.3% (4.77x) Native Hawaiian: 0.6% vs 0.2% (3.00x) Native American: 1.8% vs 0.7% (2.57x) African American: 14.3% vs 12.7% (1.13x) Hispanic or Latino: 12.2% vs 17.6% (0.69x) non-Jewish white: 33.0% vs 58.9% (0.56x) [1] https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/adm…

Where is your source used for the US Demographics for freshman aged students?

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#356
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income inequality is only "unachievable" exactly because of thinking like this. If people were genuinely invested in equality they would be asking "what can i do to get us there faster?" instead of being defeatist and calling it unachievable because you didn't personally create the problem.

You didn't answer his question, created a strawman, put words in his mouth, implied he doesn't care about equality (isn't treating people equally, regardless of race equality?)... goodness.

He explicitly said income equality is unachievable. I didn't put those words in his mouth.

You can't answer the question of "when" if a person has already decided the goal is unachievable. Again, those were his words not mine

The temporary measures will end WHEN people are genuinely interested enough to help regardless of whether they created the problem. That is my answer. You just don't like it. And that's ok....

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This adds nothing to the conversation because no one is saying that. People are saying that they're entitled to a fair opportunity to get in, not that they're entitled to get in period.

They got a fair shot. A judge just determined it. I got a fair shot. I didn't get in. Can the plaintiffs move on?

> They got a fair shot. A judge just determined it.

And what happens if the Supreme Court overrules that? Are you just going to blindly agree then too?

> I got a fair shot. I didn't get in. Can the plaintiffs move on?

How do you even know you got a fair shot. That's the whole point of this case. You're just blindly asserting that.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that there was no written evidence of a hard quota presented. However, the rise in the percent of college-bound Asians has grown dramatically in recent years, but the share of Asians at Harvard has not increased commensurately. An appellate court could find that this fact, combined with other circumstantial evidence, indicates that quotas were used — even if not put in writing. Also, it is well kn…

Yeah, I mean all of that's true. I'm just saying A) this is just the latest decision in a long legacy of maintaining race as part of college admissions, and that B) Harvard's specific admissions process survived immediate scrutiny. Also, I'm saying this mainly because a lot of the comments in this thread are missing that context (especially when speculating on what happens next in this case, or on what implications t…

What do you mean by "survived immediate scrutiny"? Do you mean that in a generic sense, or in some legal sense (that I'm unaware of — I only know strict, intermediate, and rational basis).

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I was under the impression that Jews commonly don't think of themselves as being white whereas the rest of the 'white' groups did. In the Anglosphere, Jews have pretty much always been considered "white". For example, both the Confederacy and Apartheid South Africa, two regimes obsessed with racial classification, never even considered that Jews might not be white. The conception of Jews as a separate race, has his…

Jews were kicked out of numerous Western European countries throughout the Middle Ages and early modern era. I hardly think Eastern Europe has a monopoly on anti-Semitism.

First, I'm not discussing anti-Semitism in general. This is a discussion specifically focused on the idea of when and where Jews were considered a separate race. It's still quite possible for a group to be discriminated, and even persecuted, without them being classified as a separate race. Just ask the Irish.

Second, Oliver Cromwell readmitted the Jews to England, nearly 500 years ago. The Dutch readmitted Jews over 500 years ago. The Swedes 300 years ago. Over 200 years ago Napoleon's Western European armies emancipated Jews, primarily from Eastern Europe's absolute monarchies.

In contrast, Jews were never granted equal legal status in Russia until 1917. Pogroms were regular occurrences in Ukraine, Poland and Lithuania until the 1920s. The Romanian Iron Guard persecuted Jews with such brutality, that even the Nazis told them to dial it back. Contrast with Denmark, where the local populace refused to let the SS deport even a single Danish Jew.

Anyone with even a passing familiarity of Jewish history would tell you that while anti-semitism in the modern period isn't unheard of in Western Europe, its orders of magnitude worse in Eastern Europe.

Re: Federal Judge Upholds Harvard's Race-Conscious Admissions Process

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is very clear that race-conscious admissions are systematically racist and discriminatory. Every time the SCOTUS hears one of these cases they acknowledge that, but the justification is that these classes are/have been historically discriminated against and constitutional admissions which take race into consideration are a temporary measure to right these historical wrongs by leveling the playing field. So the e…

> but the justification is that these classes are/have been historically discriminated against and constitutional admissions which take race into consideration are a temporary measure to right these historical wrongs by leveling the playing field. So under that thought process... when does the temporary measure end? Is there a specific goal? Or is it something unachievable like "when income inequality is fixed".

> So under that thought process... when does the temporary measure end?

Difficult to answer, and honestly not at all a priority to have an answer.

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