Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#501

Post by inscionent » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

solotronics wrote: post #443

parliament32 wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm usually not a huge fan of the US rolling in and stomping out governments (and installing their own, of course), but this is one faux-dictatorship where it sorely needs to happen. Some actual democracy would be amazing for these people. With the recent "trade war" and whatnot the stage has been set pretty well for a US intervention.

Wow what a horribe viewpoint! I can not disagree with you more here. Can you even begin to imagine the massive scale of casulty and human suffering that would occur in this scenario? Lets break it down - tens or possibly hundreds of millions of people would die - there would be almost a 100% chance of a hot ww3 but this time with hydrogen bombs, there is a good chance if this happens all life will be wiped off the fa…

Even if you could defeat the conventional forces, the ensuing insurgency/guerrilla warfare in mainland china would make Afghanistan casualties look like a teaparty.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#502

Post by orthecreedence » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

loquor wrote: post #349

This might sound alarmist, but do you think China is the biggest upcoming global problem after climate change? For two reasons: 1. China has a totalitarian ruling system. They intend to realize George Orwell's 1984. 2. Present-day China essentially has no ethics. Take the US in comparison. No matter how perverse the people in power become and even if they do messed up things, the US has some founding morals and princ…

> US has some founding morals and principles they do not forget.

Excuse my french, but what the fuck are you talking about?

How about imprisoning and torturing US citizens without due process in the name of a nebulous war that only gets worse the more we fight it?

What about all the puppet governments we've set up so that our corporate overlords can make a quick buck at the expense of some country who's resources we want to plunder?

The US is an empire. Not based on governmental control, but based on financial control. The difference between surveillance in the US and surveillance in China is that we've managed to keep our surveillance largely in the private sector; but that doesn't mean 1984 doesn't already exist here! In fact, you carry 1984 with you in your pocket everywhere you go!

I'm not saying I'd rather live in China than the US, but putting the US on some high moral pedestal is extremely ignorant of all the terrible things we've done as a country.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#503

Post by coryfklein » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

CapricornNoble wrote: post #494

coryfklein wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where is the military going to fire those "computer guided missiles?" Blowing up a home or two harboring a "terrorist cell" during a meeting I'm sure will be deterrence enough for a lot of those gun owners. > Are they going to destroy their own infrastructure? The infrastructure is the exact kind of ground that can be held much more securely against pistols and rifles using the U.S.'s advanced weaponry. > Do you th…

>>>Blowing up a home or two harboring a "terrorist cell" during a meeting I'm sure will be deterrence enough for a lot of those gun owners. Why would you draw that conclusion, when pretty much every available case study (re: drone strikes and terrorism) clearly shows otherwise? >>>Besides, look at today's political climate: most of the gun owners are the one's backing our most authoritarian leader! Is he really our m…

> when pretty much every available case study (re: drone strikes and terrorism) clearly shows otherwise?

I'm pretty sure I read those case studies differently than you do. Why, do you suppose, the military continues to make drone strikes if they are ineffective?

> How authoritarian would you rank [Trump] compared to Obama

Waaaaay more authoritarian. By his own admission, even. Trump praises, celebrates, and socializes with dictators on a much greater scale than Obama.

And if the single largest signal you're drawing from Anwar al-Awlaki's killing is that Obama is authoritarian, then I think you need to step back and examine that situation more broadly.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#504

Post by almost_usual » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

philliphaydon wrote: post #219

program_whiz wrote: post #13

Sure, the kid was swinging at the officer, and I suppose that warrants the officer acting in self-defense. But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? The government has all the power, and can simply snuff out any resistence. If you just stand in the streets, they really don't care, they are going to take your freedom. Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator that just decided they were going to…

The full video shows a officer on the ground being beaten with sticks. So it wasn’t just a kid swinging at the officer.

Maybe they should start shooting cops now.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#505

Post by swarnie_ » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

Thriptic wrote: post #117

swarnie_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No offence intended, just a stereotypical image i go to when thinking about the US's gun culture and all the problems it brings.

It's definitely the case that an armed populace acts as a check against tyranny. You can argue that this is not enough of a benefit to warrant private gun ownership given the societal costs and low probability of a tyrannical government in the US, but this benefit definitely exists.

How do you think almost ever other country in the world with more mature and developed democracies manage to maintain human rights without hoarding firearms?

I'm genuinely wondering.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#506

Post by orthecreedence » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

new2628 wrote: post #484

uoaei wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're lucky you get to die soon enough for that to be appropriate.

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

He's saying you don't have to worry because by the time it gets really bad, it will be someone else's problem. Which is exactly how we got into this mess in the first place.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#507

Post by CapricornNoble » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

Sandman wrote: post #396

daenz wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when weaponry consisted of horses and rifles, not computer-guided missiles. Let me make sure I understand your basic premise: the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns? Aside from being completely contrary to the American spirit of defending yourself f…

> the ability to defend yourself against a tyrannical dictatorship made sense until the government developed better technology, now it's pointless so just give up your guns? Basically, yes. Do you honestly think people would have any chance against probably the most powerful army in the world? Sure, they could try fighting a guerilla warfare, they'd even inflict some casualties against the enemy but it's unlikely tha…

>>>Do you honestly think people would have any chance against probably the most powerful army in the world?

You are placing waaaay too much faith in technology. Look at the Saudis: one of the worlds highest military budgets, and stockpiles of first-rate western hardware.....they are getting absolutely routed by Houthis, who run up desert mountains with just sandals, an AK, and a mouth full of stimulants.

>>>Sure, they could try fighting a guerilla warfare, they'd even inflict some casualties against the enemy but it's unlikely that in the end they'd succeed against an army that is professional, highly skilled, better equipped, has better offensive and defensive capabilities, knows a lot more about tactics and logistics and has trained for this type of situation on a daily basis.

What is the data that is driving you to this conclusion? Are you ignoring pretty much every counter-insurgency experience the US has had for the last 50 years? [2][3]

>>>I suspect a lot of them would destroy towns if they we're told that these are now enemy bases.

I suspect you don't know actual American military personnel very well, especially officers and NCOs, and how seriously we take the Laws of Warfare, AND the Constitution.

[1]https://www.snafu-solomon.com/2019/09/pics-of-houthi-rebels-...

[2]https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/02/05/why-america-lost-in-afg...

[3]https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2015-0...

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#508

Post by pimmen » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:26 PM UTC

UIZealot wrote: post #416

Legogris wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are several reports of people whom the CCP views as antagonistic having gone missing when flying into or through China. Bookshop owners, political activists and writers, for example. The strong reaction against the extradition bill comes to a large part out of (reasonable) fear that it will be abused as a tool to get rid of dissidents and pro-independence elements.

I'm only aware of Gui Minhai, a book store owner. He had to appear on TV in China and give a confession of guilt, but was afterwards free to go home. He is not missing. And he is not serving time, the GGP was mistaken. (EDIT: I stand corrected, if reports of his continuing detention in mainland China are true. His is certainly a curious, unfortunately, and extreme case. It does not take away from the fact that Hong K…

He is still on the mainland. I’m Swedish by the way and follow his daughter, Angela Gui. His daughter has been given very limited access to her own father, and the Swedish Ministry of Foreign Affairs also has difficulty reaching him. For some reason, the CCP felt it necessary to use a Chinese businessman to try to make a deal with Ms. Gui where she would limit her media apperances and be given more contact with her father. Hardly respecting freedom of speech, in my own country no less.

And, again, this was because of a bookstore owned in Hong Kong, not the mainland.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#509

Post by slg » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

rjf72 wrote: post #448

slg wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this basically what the fascist in Germany, the communists in China and the Soviet Union, and countless other examples did? It is weird that people think that Americans are somehow a morally superior people to all the other countries that had already fallen down that path. I mean we are already locking up toddlers in cages and I haven't heard a single report of any push back from the people who are controlling…

In the instances you mention, the government tended to pass gun control or confiscation before engaging in widescale tyranny. In 1938 Nazi Germany passed a gun control law that effectively gave 'true Germans' vastly more gun rights (which had been compulsory rescinded at the end of WW1) yet, they it simultaneously prohibited Jews from owning any weapon - even knives. [1] The holocaust began in 1941. In 1924 in the So…

Directly from the Wikipedia article you linked:

>The Jews of Germany constituted less than 1 percent of the country's population. It is preposterous to argue that the possession of firearms would have enabled them to mount resistance against a systematic program of persecution implemented by a modern bureaucracy, enforced by a well-armed police state, and either supported or tolerated by the majority of the German population. Mr. Carson's suggestion that ordinary Germans, had they had guns, would have risked their lives in armed resistance against the regime simply does not comport with the regrettable historical reality of a regime that was quite popular at home. Inside Germany, only the army possessed the physical force necessary for defying or overthrowing the Nazis, but the generals had thrown in their lot with Hitler early on.

You could even argue that armed push back from the Jews would have resulted in more popular support for their extermination and would have hastened and worsened the Holocaust.

>As for our situation, I think we can appeal to the declaration of independence...

The Declaration of Independence is irrelevant here. We aren't talking about any legal, moral, or ethical reason for opposing despots. We are talking about it from a practical perspective. It is wildly less practical today than it was in the 18th century because the growth in military might of today's government has far outpaced the firepower available to the citizenry.

>You're comparing a transient discomfort for a relatively tiny number of people entering the country illegally, to events where millions of citizens were systematically and intentionally killed or starved to death by their governments.

And just like with the earlier examples, things start slow. The temperate of the political water in the US is rising and like a frog, no one has yet jumped out of the pot. That doesn't spell doom yet, but it also doesn't forecast great things if the political environment continues to worsen.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#510

Post by coryfklein » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #452

coryfklein wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The US military has an urban warfare document that states the number of troops required to secure N population Are you expecting the whole US to join this insurgency/rebellion/civil war? Most of the gun owners today already support Trump - a man who idolizes authoritarianism. Instead of a scenario where the entirety of the U.S. police force quells a rebellion made up of 100% of the gun owning populace, it would be…

The 'whole US'? No, of course not. If an entire city was against the dictator, then they could do what al-Assad did in Syria: gas the entire city. The problem with an insurgency is that most of the population is either for you or at least pretends to be... so it's impossible to find those working against you.. and that support could be active (by fighting themselves) or passive by refusing to report insurgent activit…

No reason an insurgency couldn't coexist with a dictatorship. I just don't believe this kind of embedded insurgency could reach levels of organization great enough to overthrow the dictatorship.

Certainly an insurgent in a dictatorship has not won back his liberty. Therefore an armed populace, in my mind, does not prevent a dictatorship.