Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests • Hacker News Board

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#181

Post by dannyw » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #168

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

Dictating over a country of armed resistance is not very valuable. I also think you underestimate the power of sheer numbers and guerilla warfare. The ones fighting would be the friends and family of the armed forces.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#182

Post by MrBuddyCasino » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #168

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

You need ground troops to conquer and occupy any country, especially cities. Tanks or jets won’t help you. If civilians are armed with assault rifles, good luck.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#183

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

davinic wrote: post #121

swebs wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problems are unrelated to gun ownership. If you were to plot the percent of gun ownership vs the crime rate among various states or even countries, you wouldn't find much of a correlation.

There are several studies on this that conclude otherwise. For example[1]: "Firearm prevalence is significantly related to total violent crime (B = .600, p [1]: http://www.cjcj.org/uploads/cjcj/documents/jpj_firearm_owner...

So the study found a correlation between suicide by firearm and violent crime, not firearm prevalence and violent crime. They try to justify using suicide by firearm as a stand in for gun ownership, but if they don't have good stats on gun ownership to use for this study, then how could the previous studies have been able to make the connection between suicide by firearm and prevalence since they would need the same data.

>Firearm prevalence in the United States is difficult to determine because there is no database that collects information on firearm ownership and prevalence. Thus, analyses that study firearm prevalence have had to develop proxies for firearm ownership. As a proxy for firearm ownership, the current analysis used the percentage of suicides by a firearm from 2000 to 2010.

Little tricks like this are why people lose faith in science.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#184

Post by Andrex » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

hokumguru wrote: post #120

empath75 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they were armed this would have been over a long time ago. China would have gone in with tanks and the army, or even air strikes. Once you take up arms against the government that’s not a protest, that’s a civil war.

The world would react quite brutally I imagine to another massacre from China - especially one on this potential scale.

They successfully swept Tiananmen Square under the rug without much internal fuss, so I wouldn't underestimate the Chinese state in this regard.

Also, "the world" is too homogeneous a group to predict it would all simultaneously go after China for some single incident.

Who is in the world? What would their motivations be for "reacting" to China? And more importantly, what counter-motivations exist that could sway them from doing so?

If you take all this into account, you'll find the group willing to go "against" China for anything is actually very small.

Edit- Added section responding to the "world" comment.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#185

Post by dmix » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

woutr_be wrote: post #128

dx87 wrote: post #6

Not to defend what the police have been doing overall during this protest, but in this specific incident you can see the protestors beating a police officer on the ground, and the protestor who got shot was swinging a metal pipe at the police officer that shot him.

I've been fairly critical of protestors before, but in this instance, you can see the police going in for a fight, already heavily outnumbered. I'm not sure what they expected to happen, but the officer drew his gun almost instantly and shot a high school kid at point blank range. There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors, and as soon as they realized protestors weren't havi…

> There's been other instances today where police was just looking to fight protestors

And protestors obviously looking to fight police. They swarmed the other officers partner who was being beaten on the ground and he was next.

I find it shocking so many people were expecting him to just take it the beating or 'run away' and leave his partner there.

There's a very good argument for having police on the streets when there's protestors running around throwing petrol bombs and swinging metal pipes. This is basic civil society 101 stuff. I'm not convinced the solution to China's totalitarianism is random street violence and property destruction by teenagers.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#186

Post by snagglegaggle » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:07 PM UTC

davinic wrote: post #121

swebs wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problems are unrelated to gun ownership. If you were to plot the percent of gun ownership vs the crime rate among various states or even countries, you wouldn't find much of a correlation.

There are several studies on this that conclude otherwise. For example[1]: "Firearm prevalence is significantly related to total violent crime (B = .600, p [1]: http://www.cjcj.org/uploads/cjcj/documents/jpj_firearm_owner...

I view that study with suspicion as there are also some which show a very poor link or no link at all. But in either case: prohibiting the possession, sale, and consumption of alcohol would decrease disease and increase productivity. Why should we not do that?

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#187

Post by jimktrains2 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

swarnie_ wrote: post #22

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age. What are a couple of rednecks with assault rifles (which arguably they shouldn't be able to purchase anyway) going to do against semi-autonomy kill droids being flown from a bunker in the desert?

> Non-American here, i never really understood your second amendment or how you cling to it in the modern age.

There is a substantial portion of the US that hunts or otherwise use guns as protection (for them and livestock) from animals.

Additionally, there are many parts of the US where police may really be 30+ min away.

The 2nd Amendment was arguably about having volunteer state militias where the citizens supplied their own guns, but because of quirks of history and grammar, that isn't the only reason gun ownership is allowed.

Americans, on the whole, are also pretty distrusting of government, even in the best of times.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#188

Post by baybal2 » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

fennecfoxen wrote: post #56

baybal2 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But another question is, what are the protesters supposed to do? But another question is, what people in Beijing supposed to do? Think of that. To many, it's very clear that men in black will not be content even if given suffrage. Then they will want places in legislature, own foreign policy, armed forces, and ultimately sovereignty. The popular sentiment that it's "poor HK kids" coming out at large out of desperat…

Ah yes, democratic representation and sovereignty. Entirely unthinkable.

Imagine yourself a party bureaucrat. Would you do a 100% career ending move?

That's why I point to the crisis being irresolvable. No way out of this for both sides.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#189

Post by markstos » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

Fezzik wrote: post #168

nvahalik wrote: post #18

> Imagine if the US suddenly had a dictator This is why we have the second amendment. And the constitution as the thing to which office-holders swear allegiance to rather than to "the party" or "the president".

I always find this sentiment a little silly - if the US President went in to full dictator mode and had the support of the military, do you really think a militia of armed citizens would be anything but gnats against the windshield of the United States Armed Forces? And if s/he did not have the support of the Armed Forces, it would not be a very effective dictatorship and you would not even need guns for a rebellion.…

The US Armed Forces is made up of people, many of which would not support a self-appointed dictator attacking their own people.

Re: Protester shot in chest by live police round during Hong Kong protests

#190

Post by SkyBelow » Tue, Oct 01, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

onion2k wrote: post #64

sudhirj wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing the original Americans did when protesting the massively better trained and armed British Army. Keep their wits about them and keep fighting. If anything the war in Afghanistan has proven that technology is no match for resilience and grit.

Same thing the original Americans did when protesting the massively better trained and armed British Army. Get saved by the French? ducks

Part of the strategy would be to resist long enough for international pressure to aid, be that UN sanctions or be that another country deciding to claim some more land while the US is too distracted to fight back.