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A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

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Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#291

Post by hapless »

lonelappde wrote: post #271
Jun8 wrote: post #56

My understanding is that the train of events that resulted in mod Monica Cellio’s demodding from SE started with a gender-related complaint tweet ( https://medium.com/@cellio/dear-stack-overflow-we-need-to-ta... ). Companies are now very sensitive to this pattern, esp. true for SE due to the ongoing changes there.

That Twitter kerfuffle was in 2018. Has there been ongoing train of events since then? Monica mentions "this rule mandates specific, positive actions." but not what the rule is, which I find disquieting. What is the rule, and if it's so bad, and also public (it's a new rule everyone has to know, right?), why is being kept secret?

Using the correct pronouns for trans people. That’s it.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#292

Post by zo1 »

twic wrote: post #182
Pfhreak wrote: post #136

Reading between the lines, it looks like a queer mod felt unsupported by SE over a long period of time, and SE eventually decided to make a code of conduct change. These mods disagreed with that change (some using language like "thought crime") which precipitated their resignations?

Hold on, it's not clear to me that Aza's and Monica Cello's resignations are connected like this.

Aza's formal resignation is here:

https://literature.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/1195/res...

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#293

Post by falsedan »

vorpalhex wrote: post #134
falsedan wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have volunteer fire fighters, volunteer paramedics, volunteer librarians, volunteer social workers None of these positions are with a private business operating for profit.

SE does not profit from its community websites (eg the ones we all read) aside from a vague "getting traffic to its enterprise product" which is probably not worth what they spend on hosting.

> SE does not profit from its community websites

I don’t see how it’s my problem that their business model isn’t profitable. The board & C-suite still draw a salary, and the company value is built on unpaid labour.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#294

Post by yanderekko »

hapless wrote: post #290

The policy in question appears to be affirmatively requiring moderators not to (deliberately) mis-gender trans people, or allow user content to do the same. All these ex-mods wrote these coy essays with discussions of free will and human rights in order to avoid discussing the issue at hand. Trans people are surely a more important part of the StackExchange community and business than a few unpaid volunteers. I am no…

>The policy in question appears to be affirmatively requiring moderators not to (deliberately) mis-gender trans people

This is either incorrect or relies on an unconventionally broad notion of "misgendering." Normally misgendering is understood to be the act of using pronouns other than a person's preferred pronouns, the point of controversy is that now simply avoiding pronouns can be considered an act of misgendering. This is new territory.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#295

Post by baud147258 »

lonelappde wrote: post #275
baud147258 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A "Director of Public Q&A at Stack Overflow" answered with: "We aren’t going to share specifics out of respect for all individuals involved but this is a site reaching millions of people and we have to do what we believe fosters a spirit of inclusion and respect. When a moderator violates that, we will always do our best to resolve it with them privately. When we can’t we must take action." ( https://judaism.meta.sta…

I understand SE respecting privacy by not publishing details about the firing. I don't understand Monica raising a complaint about being fired, giving a lot of background info, saying he knows why he was fired, but writing in tangles to avoid stating what he believes triggered the firing. If it's something about pronouns, or whatever it is, he should say so. Otherwise it's just "I was fired for something that they th…

I read that more as "I disagreed and commented on a future CoC change, but I won't discuss a CoC change that's not been publicly revealed, because it's beside the point".

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#296

Post by lilyball »

yanderekko wrote: post #294
hapless wrote: post #290

The policy in question appears to be affirmatively requiring moderators not to (deliberately) mis-gender trans people, or allow user content to do the same. All these ex-mods wrote these coy essays with discussions of free will and human rights in order to avoid discussing the issue at hand. Trans people are surely a more important part of the StackExchange community and business than a few unpaid volunteers. I am no…

>The policy in question appears to be affirmatively requiring moderators not to (deliberately) mis-gender trans people This is either incorrect or relies on an unconventionally broad notion of "misgendering." Normally misgendering is understood to be the act of using pronouns other than a person's preferred pronouns, the point of controversy is that now simply avoiding pronouns can be considered an act of misgenderin…

If you very conspicuously avoid using pronouns for someone, it’s pretty obvious what’s going on and that you’re deliberately avoiding gendering someone correctly. It’s not as bad as using the wrong pronouns, but it’s still very disrespectful.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#297

Post by tomohawk »

9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #243
csande17 wrote: post #211

This resignation notice from a moderator on the Christianity Stack Exchange appears to provide the most detail about what's going on: https://christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6718/b...

The whole pronoun drama that is inherently American is tearing down international communities left and right despite it not being even an issue.

Imposing speech codes is most definitely an issue. It goes to the core of deeply held values. It replaces tolerance with intolerance as the value to be upheld.

Those imposing the CoC are getting exactly what they want - driving anyone who disagrees from the field.

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#298

Post by baud147258 »

baud147258 wrote: post #295
lonelappde wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand SE respecting privacy by not publishing details about the firing. I don't understand Monica raising a complaint about being fired, giving a lot of background info, saying he knows why he was fired, but writing in tangles to avoid stating what he believes triggered the firing. If it's something about pronouns, or whatever it is, he should say so. Otherwise it's just "I was fired for something that they th…

I read that more as "I disagreed and commented on a future CoC change, but I won't discuss a CoC change that's not been publicly revealed, because it's beside the point".

Well, I read a post from another ex-moderator[0] and it seems the CoC change has a part about pronouns, but it doesn't mean that all the changes are about this and that Monica left because of the changes on pronouns. But that still doesn't change the fact that "firing" a mod for disagreeing with and commenting on a future change of a CoC seem wrong, especially since it didn't look like SE tried to discuss the issue before firing them.

[0]https://christianity.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/6718/b...

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#299

Post by lidHanteyk »

Dobbs wrote: post #174
latk wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a perpetual tension between those who want SE to be helping everyone, and those who want to curate a helpful resource. People involved with community moderation aspects tend to fall into the latter group. For the last half decade or so SE has progressively abandoned this latter group, leading to a lot of pent-up frustration. Some changes SE has made are sensible (e.g. striving to be more welcoming and more i…

I really wish more details about this was available. > it seems that SE is unwilling to protect trans moderators from vitriol by other mods. Reading Monica's post made me pretty sure this was trans related. I'm sad that I was right. > [From Monica's Post] unlike the rest of the CoC, this rule mandates specific, positive actions. This is something I've heard many times from anti-trans activists in order to justify the…

I think that you're spot-on. Some 2% of the population is neither man nor woman; if Monica doesn't use "they" to refer to them, then how does she refer to them?

Re: A large number of Stack Exchange mods resigning over new policies

#300

Post by johannes1234321 »

falsedan wrote: post #293
vorpalhex wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SE does not profit from its community websites (eg the ones we all read) aside from a vague "getting traffic to its enterprise product" which is probably not worth what they spend on hosting.

> SE does not profit from its community websites I don’t see how it’s my problem that their business model isn’t profitable. The board & C-suite still draw a salary, and the company value is built on unpaid labour.

And now we are contributing for free to Y Combinator!

(True - there's not much direct revenue from this comment I'm typing here, but this is Hacker News, the place where the imorotantninfirmationnos and YC is in the center of it, don't you see how cool they are?)

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