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Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

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Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#401

Post by repolfx »

lovetocode wrote: post #372
repolfx wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many firms don't offer maternity leave? Outside of tiny 5 person startups that don't have any HR policies at all that seems like a strawman. As for men making condescending comments towards women, that's not a systematic problem with a systematic solution. And women (or really, feminists) pretty routinely make condescending comments towards men in my experience, at a much, much greater rate. The idea that women f…

The largest employer in the United States does not offer paid maternity leave — the U.S. Government. My wife whom is a federal employee did not receive maternity leave. Instead she was forced to use two years of forwarded sick leave.

I didn't know that! Thanks. I wonder why that's the case. Is that normal in the States?

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#402

Post by hutzlibu »

dTal wrote: post #397
hutzlibu wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have long hair myself. But I wash it. At university .. I got the impression that quite some people forgot that. Regulary. Also to wash clothes. There is a difference between unattractive and disgusting. And I love open source and fresh air. But I did not enjoy some linux convention for example, because I seemed to be the only one, who minded the bad, worn out air in the rooms. So all of this I find offputting, I su…

Why would it disproportionately put off women?

Because in general women take care more about their outfit?

Why? Complex, I guess. But also not too interesting to me. I am more interested in motivating people in IT towards a healthier live style in general.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#403

Post by TeMPOraL »

emj wrote: post #398
TeMPOraL wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They invent the delusion that gender and age disqualifies you for a job (girls will just get pregnant and leave! This is not a delusion, and it's a thing commonly talked about in my country (Poland). It's not just about that girls will get pregnant and leave - it'll be that girls will get pregnant and out of the sudden[0] go on paid maternity leave, which they can extend to a year, during which you have to keep the…

It is a good thing that parents can do that, for some reason these issues do not come up when men take paternity leave here. It is very common for fathers to be gone for a 6-12 months after their babies are born. You just need to change the laws, and how you deal with parenting socially, then it will all make sense ("just").

Our laws allow for two types of paternity leave; one is 14 days, the other is 6 weeks for a single child and taking it reduces mother's maternity leave. This makes it impossible for a man to play shenanigans that make them stay on leave while employed for couple years.

Definitely there's a lot of work to be done on parenting in Poland, both in regulatory and social fashion. Currently it's a tension between the traditional family model and the desire to allow women to have equal career prospects to men.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#404

Post by macspoofing »

deogeo wrote: post #8
macspoofing wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if there was anything deliberate here. It's possible the companies targeted the jobs ads with factors or attributes that were correlated with younger men by the Facebook algorithm.

Being deliberate is not required: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disparate_impact

Sure, but it changes the optics from those companies doing actively something nefarious, to doing it accidentally out of ignorance of the underlying technologies.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#405

Post by eanthy »

neilv wrote: post #394
eanthy wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is anything wrong with gender difference in subjects. Psychology for example is 95% women. Some professions are naturally more interesting for men other for women. Don't see why policy is trying to fore women into tech

Why do you conclude that the cause is "natural interest"? I've heard a number of other theories that also sound plausible, and they sound like problems that should be addressed. Examples of other theories (not exhaustive): alienated by brogrammer/strutting/aggressive culture many places, discriminated against in hiring many places, harassed by some individuals, not trying due to belief that they'll be discriminated a…

what you said can be applied to literally any job. Not a valid point when it comes to tech in particular

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#406

Post by AlexTWithBeard »

Angostura wrote: post #383
stakhanov wrote: post #290

There are job boards that SPECIFICALLY make it their business to target women and deliver female candidates looking for tech roles (in organizations that are in need of diversity hires): https://powertofly.com/ ...and companies pay a premium for those job advertising channels. Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women?

> Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women? Because the one aims to reduce an imbalance in the workforce, which leads to a particular section being under represented. Thwe other aims to increase an imbalance in the workforce, which leads to a particular section being under represented.

Why do we think the imbalance is bad?

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#407

Post by blaser-waffle »

hutzlibu wrote: post #369
llampx wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When I started to study IT, I was surprised to see, that the stereotypes were the majority. Meaning, long, oily hair, etc. Do you realize how this comment would come off if you were talking about women and judging them for their appearance when they went to school to study something utterly unrelated to appearance?

Tell me. I believe body hygiene is wanted in all professions. (btw. my hair is long, too)

It's wanted in all professions; it's absence is tolerated in some more than others.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#408

Post by tapland »

merb wrote: post #380
tapland wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But selection usually happens way before that. Probably at latest in middle school.

In germany it even happens before. parenting has a real impact on any child. it starts with the color of their cloths. some people really live the old way and belive and tell their boys that boys don't cry and they don't wear certain colors, etc. while girls need to behave girly wear nice looking cloths, etc. and then when it comes to homework they try to push their childs in certain directions. or tell/force their c…

I don't know how much I'd attribute this to choosing programming later in life. At 5 I was building Lego technics and my sisters were playing with dolls, though they got as much Lego as I did and our parents very much encouraged us all to fiddle with electronics and tech.

My SO codes but hated anything girly from a very young age and was constantly told she wasn't acting ladylike.

Those experiences are from prior to encountering the effects from the rest of society. My SO was diagnosed with ASD as an adult but has had elevated testosterone levels found at a young age. So just personally it feels weird attributing those things to upbringing.

And Sweden where I am really shouldn't have as few women in tech as we do either if it was based on gender roles in upbringing.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#409

Post by pnutjam »

lovetocode wrote: post #370
hutzlibu wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe one of the reasons women do not want to work in IT is, that the atmosphere is still sometimes sexist? Or at least arkward. When I started to study IT, I was surprised to see, that the stereotypes were the majority. Meaning, long, oily hair, etc. So I guess that is still changing, and I really do not believe 50% women should be the goal, but maybe the IT world still needs reflection sometimes, why so little wome…

Awkward for you maybe. If women don’t want careers in IT because it is filled with socially awkward men then whose fault is it really?

There is ample evidence that women were pushed out of IT. Educate yourself.

Edit: citation https://www.theguardian.com/careers/2017/aug/10/how-the-tech...

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#410

Post by eanthy »

emj wrote: post #396
eanthy wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

women are already so benefited in the tech industry, getting hired just for their gender, getting scholarships in universities and so on. The media makes it seem exactly the opposite because it gets them views. The reason there is lack of women in tech is because they are naturally not interested in it not because anyone is preventing them. If anything female starting salaries are higher than males

Everytime you think "it is naturally so" you need to take a step back and wonder why you think that is. My experience is that most of my male coworkers do not have a natural interest in computer science or engineering. They are here for the money.

I will ignore how untrue that is for now and tell me why is it the same situation in university CS/engineering courses too then, 99% is men? Tech doesn't even make as much money as other industries such as sales/recruitment so doing it only for the money is not a valid point
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