Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#371

Post by andybak » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:04 AM UTC

trickstra wrote: post #358

andybak wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women? I suspect you probably know the reason (even if you disagree with it) and you're making a polemic point rather than genuinely asking this question. If I'm mistaken then forgive me. In short - certain sectors have a very skewed gender bias and it's regarded as a good thing to try an…

Gender bias is when a company doesn't decide by anything relevant to the job (such as skills, quality or work discipline), but instead decided mostly by the sex. And this is happening. Female programmers are getting hired even when their skills/productivity/experience is way lower than male programmers.

I don't want to get into the whole "positive discrimination" debate and my own thoughts on the matter are complex and change frequently.

However - the arguments for, against and for many points in between have been stated many times. Either you already are aware of them in which case you should be engaging with those rather than restating a starting position - or you can just do a Google search and get up to date with what is a fairly complex and nuanced topic.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#372

Post by lovetocode » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:06 AM UTC

repolfx wrote: post #342

Traster wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Big tech firms are desperate for more women. I can't talk about everyone's experience, but this is true in a "We desperately want to have more women", but not true in the sense of "We're willing to address the systematic reasons women don't join our company". It doesn't matter how much you advertise on a website for women if you're advertising a job with no maternity benefits, or one of your engineers remarks "Oh! I…

How many firms don't offer maternity leave? Outside of tiny 5 person startups that don't have any HR policies at all that seems like a strawman. As for men making condescending comments towards women, that's not a systematic problem with a systematic solution. And women (or really, feminists) pretty routinely make condescending comments towards men in my experience, at a much, much greater rate. The idea that women f…

The largest employer in the United States does not offer paid maternity leave — the U.S. Government. My wife whom is a federal employee did not receive maternity leave. Instead she was forced to use two years of forwarded sick leave.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#373

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:08 AM UTC

kjs3 wrote: post #194

DoreenMichele wrote: post #24

I have mixed feelings about this. I am absolutely aware this can be a means to intentionally exclude specific groups due to prejudice and can be a polite way to do terrible things. I get that. But the reality is that the modern world seems to seriously suck at figuring out how to help people find the right kind of job for themselves or help employers find the right people for the job. I keep thinking "Surely, there m…

The "modern world" sucks at figuring out how to help people find the right kind of job for one of two reasons: 1) they keep thinking about gender and age as qualifiers for jobs for which those factors have absolutely zero relevance (girls are bad at math! Old people can't learn new things!), or 2) They invent the delusion that gender and age disqualifies you for a job (girls will just get pregnant and leave! oldster…

> They invent the delusion that gender and age disqualifies you for a job (girls will just get pregnant and leave!

This is not a delusion, and it's a thing commonly talked about in my country (Poland). It's not just about that girls will get pregnant and leave - it'll be that girls will get pregnant and out of the sudden[0] go on paid maternity leave, which they can extend to a year, during which you have to keep their position open, after which you can't legally fire them even if you've already found a replacement, and there are many women[1] who plan another pregnancy just after the leave period ends, in order to extend their employment period by another two years. The incentive here is that health leave and maternity leave both count as employment, so they don't have a break in years of employment on their CV (and both are paid, too).

Overall effect of our legal landscape makes companies prefer men over women, and/or prefer employment contracts that don't offer these legal guarantees, and there's always noise being made whenever our government (which is currently pro-family) starts talking about adjustments that would extend some protections to those other work contract types.

(Now I'm not saying this to justify the bias in general, but just to point out that there are real economic pressures in play that do get considered by the employers.)

--

[0] - You don't have a "notice period" on maternity live; if a doctor decides there are concerns about the health of a mother or a child, your employee can just give you the doctor's note and stop coming to work.

[1] - And I've personally heard parents encouraging their daughters to do that. It seems to be a common theme, at least among the less well-off parts of our population. The boss-employee relationship is pretty antagonistic.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#374

Post by eanthy » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:10 AM UTC

stakhanov wrote: post #290

There are job boards that SPECIFICALLY make it their business to target women and deliver female candidates looking for tech roles (in organizations that are in need of diversity hires): https://powertofly.com/ ...and companies pay a premium for those job advertising channels. Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women?

women are already so benefited in the tech industry, getting hired just for their gender, getting scholarships in universities and so on. The media makes it seem exactly the opposite because it gets them views. The reason there is lack of women in tech is because they are naturally not interested in it not because anyone is preventing them. If anything female starting salaries are higher than males

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#375

Post by toxik » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:17 AM UTC

eanthy wrote: post #374

stakhanov wrote: post #290

There are job boards that SPECIFICALLY make it their business to target women and deliver female candidates looking for tech roles (in organizations that are in need of diversity hires): https://powertofly.com/ ...and companies pay a premium for those job advertising channels. Why is it a great business and an initiative to be applauded if it is about excluding men and a scandal if it is about excluding women?

women are already so benefited in the tech industry, getting hired just for their gender, getting scholarships in universities and so on. The media makes it seem exactly the opposite because it gets them views. The reason there is lack of women in tech is because they are naturally not interested in it not because anyone is preventing them. If anything female starting salaries are higher than males

I'm not saying quotas and affirmative action are the way to go, but it should be pointed out that women are still heavily outnumbered in the tech industry and STEM education. My personal view is that I'm not sure it's actually an issue that needs to (or can) be fixed, I think we should let people do what they want to do. Turns out that means bigger gender differences in career choice.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#376

Post by tapland » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:18 AM UTC

llampx wrote: post #365

trickstra wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IT is not about math

Programming is pretty strongly about math, especially in university when you learn the theory and not just how to link an API to a database. In order to study CS at my school you had to take some fairly advanced Math classes including Calculus and Linear Algebra, which are not easy unless you are comfortable with Math.

But selection usually happens way before that. Probably at latest in middle school.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#377

Post by trax » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:20 AM UTC

toxik wrote: post #375

eanthy wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

women are already so benefited in the tech industry, getting hired just for their gender, getting scholarships in universities and so on. The media makes it seem exactly the opposite because it gets them views. The reason there is lack of women in tech is because they are naturally not interested in it not because anyone is preventing them. If anything female starting salaries are higher than males

I'm not saying quotas and affirmative action are the way to go, but it should be pointed out that women are still heavily outnumbered in the tech industry and STEM education. My personal view is that I'm not sure it's actually an issue that needs to (or can) be fixed, I think we should let people do what they want to do. Turns out that means bigger gender differences in career choice.

why aren't we trying to fix the abnormal amount of women in nursing? why aren't there male only positions for nurses?

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#378

Post by eanthy » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:21 AM UTC

toxik wrote: post #375

eanthy wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

women are already so benefited in the tech industry, getting hired just for their gender, getting scholarships in universities and so on. The media makes it seem exactly the opposite because it gets them views. The reason there is lack of women in tech is because they are naturally not interested in it not because anyone is preventing them. If anything female starting salaries are higher than males

I'm not saying quotas and affirmative action are the way to go, but it should be pointed out that women are still heavily outnumbered in the tech industry and STEM education. My personal view is that I'm not sure it's actually an issue that needs to (or can) be fixed, I think we should let people do what they want to do. Turns out that means bigger gender differences in career choice.

I don't think there is anything wrong with gender difference in subjects. Psychology for example is 95% women. Some professions are naturally more interesting for men other for women. Don't see why policy is trying to fore women into tech

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#379

Post by qball » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:22 AM UTC

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #346

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because “punching up” is allowed, apparently.

When someone is sitting on you and you're punching up it can be seen as a fight for liberation, when you're sitting on someone and punching down it can be seen as violent oppression.

Bullying and punching of any kind, by any person or group, is unacceptable and not to be tolerated.

Re: Employers Used Facebook to Keep Women and Older Workers from Seeing Job Ads

#380

Post by merb » Mon, Sep 30, 2019, 10:24 AM UTC

tapland wrote: post #376

llampx wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming is pretty strongly about math, especially in university when you learn the theory and not just how to link an API to a database. In order to study CS at my school you had to take some fairly advanced Math classes including Calculus and Linear Algebra, which are not easy unless you are comfortable with Math.

But selection usually happens way before that. Probably at latest in middle school.

In germany it even happens before. parenting has a real impact on any child. it starts with the color of their cloths. some people really live the old way and belive and tell their boys that boys don't cry and they don't wear certain colors, etc. while girls need to behave girly wear nice looking cloths, etc. and then when it comes to homework they try to push their childs in certain directions. or tell/force their childs their dream.