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Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

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Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#41
post #2

Pro or con of the union idea, I hope get they nailed for firing those two organizers. Firing someone and claiming poor performance makes me not want to support them anymore. I won't give them a cent.

I’ve not met either the Kickstarter management nor the people that were fired, but isn’t it possible that these folks knew they were poor performers and were on borrowed time with the company? They may have wanted to start a union that could bargain on their behalf with a lot more power. I’m not saying that unions created in good faith are bad, but there are union leaders that give off a vibe of self-enrichment. Kind…

I hadn't thought of it until I read your comment, but when I worked for the government, the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates.

There was a lot of really good people at the government. And they never talked about their contract. But then the two worst employees on the team were very, very familiar with their rights down to the letter.

There's some type of correlation there. The more you know the exact wording of the union contract, the more you talk about it, the less interested you are in serving the end customers to the best of your abilities.

If someone asks you to do something, and your default answer is that it's not in your contract, you're not approaching things in the right way.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It works great for the Screen Actor’s Guild and the rest of the film industry. They set minimum wages and use their market power to radically restrict entry so that there’s less competition from outsiders, by not working with firms that employ non-members and expelling members that do. Any Software Professionals Guild could do the same, reduce the supply of competitors and punish people who employed any entry level w…

"According to the most recent SAG statistics, the average member earns $52,000 a year, while the vast majority take home less than $1,000 a year from acting jobs." - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-salaries-re... [2014] This doesn't sound very similar to the market for Software Engineers where there is a shortage of skilled labour.

Indeed. A successful US Programmers Guild would probably look more like the American Medical Association. It would restrict training places and increase entrance standards over time, doing everything in its power to prevent people who do the same job in other countries from having their qualifications recognized in the US. US physicians earn well over double the average of their UK counterparts, never mind Malaysian or Indian ones. If the AMA didn’t do its best to stop doctors from these countries practicing that kind of differential would be untenable.

You’d also probably get some kind of “not a programmer, honest” like nurses in the medical field. In the current climate you can move from being the one who knows pivot table to business intelligence to data analyst to data scientist but with licensing and “professional ethics” there’s always an attempt to maintain a bright line between professionals and “the help”, whether they be paralegals, nurses or draftsmen, compared to lawyers, doctors or engineers.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#43

Regardless of whether anyone is pro or anti union, it's been obvious for a while now that Kickstarter isn't arguing in good faith about this. They are going to war with their own employees. There's just no justification for that, even if you think unions are bad. Kickstarter keeps digging themselves deeper and deeper into this hole, claiming that they're doing it because unions will alter the relationship they have w…

Doesn't seem that you have the facts, but you're convinced that one side is right.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve not met either the Kickstarter management nor the people that were fired, but isn’t it possible that these folks knew they were poor performers and were on borrowed time with the company? They may have wanted to start a union that could bargain on their behalf with a lot more power. I’m not saying that unions created in good faith are bad, but there are union leaders that give off a vibe of self-enrichment. Kind…

I hadn't thought of it until I read your comment, but when I worked for the government, the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates. There was a lot of really good people at the government. And they never talked about their contract. But then the two worst employees on the team were…

> the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates.

Apply this comment to workers and employers and it sound reasonable. Rephrase this comment to apply to civilians and police officers and it sounds horrible, even though in both cases we can argue that the goal is to not have adversarial, competitive relationships, and instead to trust each other.

I am somewhat skeptical about unions, and I don't think they're the silver bullet that people claim they are. I sympathize with people who worry about adding additional layers to management. There is no such thing as an incorruptible organization.

But, I'm opposed to any insinuation that knowing your rights and exercising them is something to be ashamed of, in any context.

> If someone asks you to do something, and your default answer is that it's not in your contract, you're not approaching things in the right way.

Again, this sounds reasonable. But it makes me feel really weird, and I think its the implication (intended or not) that being a good employee means not thinking about whether or not you're being taken advantage of. It is very difficult for me to imagine any employer I've ever worked for arguing the same thing in the opposite direction. Employers know their contracts, they hire entire legal teams who are entirely dedicated to knowing the contract. Shouldn't the employee also know the contract?

Mutual respect means not going out of your way to have power over another person; it means viewing them as an equal. If only one side of a business relationship is paying attention to and enforcing a contract, then that's not respectful; it's an unhealthy power dynamic.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#45

I worry that tech workers may be under-informed about what a union may mean. A union can be in many ways similar to a corporation with its own power structure and demands. Just 4 examples from my time in a union shop: 1) Pay raise and promotion via seniority only 2) Being warned by the shop steward that I was "working too fast" 3) Heavy coercion to contribute to specific political candidates 4) Going on strike for re…

A union is a beast unto itself, and much like companies, unions vary a great deal between themselves and your specific experiences don't generalize across all unions, anymore than my experience working for a CPG company generalizes across the industry.

To counter your anecdote, my mother spent years working under a telecom union when I was younger and never had any such issues. Employees sure were grateful however to have someone on their side when it came time to negotiating severance around lay-offs.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#46

I worry that tech workers may be under-informed about what a union may mean. A union can be in many ways similar to a corporation with its own power structure and demands. Just 4 examples from my time in a union shop: 1) Pay raise and promotion via seniority only 2) Being warned by the shop steward that I was "working too fast" 3) Heavy coercion to contribute to specific political candidates 4) Going on strike for re…

I think that people need to think about the distinctions between a white-collar union and a blue-collar union.

A blue-collar union, like the International Union, United Automobile, Aerospace and Agricultural Implement Workers of America (UAW), can essentially treat each person as known amount of performance and bargain as such. There is relatively little difference between trained employees on a production line. So the UAW can bargain for things like promotion by seniority only, which provides a reasonable balance to keep managers from playing favorites. There's not a whole lot you can do to set yourself apart when you are stamping out door panels and robots do the welding for you, so promotion on merit isn't as important. Take a look at the tone of this UAW web page and how it pitches union membership as a way to avoid bad things: https://uaw.org/organize/no-union-no-rights/

For white-collar unions, such as the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace (SPEEA), there often is a demonstrable difference in the quality of work that trained employees do, so they don't want to get rid of merit based consideration, but they do want to ensure that their employees are treated fairly. Take a look at the tone of this SPEEA web page and how it pitches union membership as a way to achieve more good things: http://www.speea.org/Join_Our_Union!/Benefits_of_SPEEA.html

The Kickstarter union shouldn't model themselves after the UAW, but more like SPEEA. I don't know what the employees are proposing, but I fear that a lot of people assume that the Kickstarter employees are trying to start a mafia within the organization that controls what all the employees can do. That's probably not the case, they should make sure that two people with the same merit are given the same fair shakes. They shouldn't be telling people to code fewer lines per day because they don't want to give the company free labor.

Things like requiring workers to support certain political candidates is what makes some people dislike unions. It's one thing for a union to endorse a candidate because they support policies favorable to union workers, it's another thing to coerce your employees to vote a certain way.

Things like striking even if you don't agree with them however, is a good part of the union and is how it gains its bargaining power. If people were free to just pick and choose the issues that they supported, then there wouldn't be a point of a union. Assuming the union is not corrupt, you should strike in solidarity with your other union members. If you show support for them today even if you don't necessarily agree, they might show support for you tomorrow even if they don't necessarily agree.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#47

The lack of unions in the industry is making me leave. It’s going to leave out many of its current employees to dry: I want something better than the word of an entrepreneur.

If a tech company I worked for unionized, I would leave. I’m not in a single company town where everyone has worked at the same place their entire lives. Tech companies face fierce competition for talent, and it has worked out quite nicely for the employees. I wouldn’t want some outside organization coming in and forcing me to pay dues, demanding changes to the structure of the company, devaluing my equity, and makin…

Unless the union negotiates an exclusive hire contract with the company (very difficult unless the union controls most of the labor supply), you can simply not join the union.

I always find these things arguments a bit weird. Lets look at the concerns

> forcing me to pay dues

Don't join. No dues, no help from the union.

> demanding changes to the structure of the company

As an employee you have no say in the structure of the company and it may restructure at any moment. As a union member at least have some say in what the union pushes for. It seems like this is arguing for no control instead of some.

> devaluing my equity

How?

> making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder.

Again how? A union can't stop a company from firing someone (barring contracts the company may have signed with the union). A union can assist the fired employee in things like negotiating severance, or mounting a legal challenge if the employee was discriminated against.

As someone who just witnessed a mass-layoff, I wonder how much better off the employees might be if they had someone on their side, negotiating severance, notice periods etc.

Everything a union does is paid for out of member dues. They don't have infinite resources to spend in constant legal battles challenging the clearly legal firing of a shitty employee, and if the did waste member dues like that, they'd quickly find themselves no members. If the union isn't representing your interests, just leave it. It'll quickly run out of members and money and become toothless.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#48
Open Collective is an alternative to 501(3)(c) for some orgs.

I wonder if an Open Collective -esque model could work for employees as an alternative to unions?

I applaud the benefits that early unions brought to workers, but what have they done lately(as in decades) I. Terms of creating/capturing value?

My experience with unions was an an employee of Amazon.com in the 90’s and witnessing the horrible things WashTech and it’s supporters did to my staff in a failed attempt to gain access to Amazon distribution centers.

It would be cool if there was a very light digital network model by which employees could collectively engage with company management/leadership.

As well as far less adversarial, more akin to collaborative labour/leadership relationship as found in Germany.

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#49

Regardless of whether anyone is pro or anti union, it's been obvious for a while now that Kickstarter isn't arguing in good faith about this. They are going to war with their own employees. There's just no justification for that, even if you think unions are bad. Kickstarter keeps digging themselves deeper and deeper into this hole, claiming that they're doing it because unions will alter the relationship they have w…

Doesn't seem that you have the facts, but you're convinced that one side is right.

I'm open to hearing additional facts, but it's difficult for me to imagine what new information could come out that would change this situation.

Regardless of whether or not the employees were actually fired for purely performance reasons, multiple workers have come forward and said that they believe the firings were related to union organization. It doesn't really matter what the intentions were, that's going to end up creating a hostile environment between workers and managers.

Let's assume for a sec that Kickstarter is completely acting in good faith -- well, there's being right and there's being smart, and the smart choice would have been to recognize that they're in a very volatile situation, and to temporarily hold off on making moves that could be misinterpreted as adversarial by their workforce.

Maybe that doesn't sound fair, but it's Kickstarter's job to maintain a functional work environment, not to be fair, and all evidence I've seen suggests that the current work environment is suffering.

In regards to other facts -- that Kickstarter won't voluntarily recognize employees decisions until required to through a legal vote, or that Kickstarter is openly campaigning against the union efforts -- again, I'm open to hearing another side to this, but this is first-hand information coming from press releases from Kickstarter itself.

Again, you don't have to be pro or anti union to think it's crappy for a company to insert itself into its employees' conversations about bargaining decisions, and then to claim that it won't recognize those decisions because doing so would somehow corrupt the neutrality of the process.

I'm not sure what facts could come up in the future that would make that turn into a good faith argument?

Re: Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

#50

I worry that tech workers may be under-informed about what a union may mean. A union can be in many ways similar to a corporation with its own power structure and demands. Just 4 examples from my time in a union shop: 1) Pay raise and promotion via seniority only 2) Being warned by the shop steward that I was "working too fast" 3) Heavy coercion to contribute to specific political candidates 4) Going on strike for re…

What about unions that are more like a trade guild, which sets standards for its members which make dealing with a union member more of a known quantity than hiring a random person off the street? I'm thinking of things like a union electrician or plumber.

This could serve to minimize the need for interview gimmicks, since the union itself would enforce standards through its own certification process.

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