Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#231

Post by jimkleiber » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #128

SllX wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have emotionless warriors or you can have emotional pacifists. You might even have emotional warriors, but emotionless pacifists is a hard sell. If the State monopolizes violence to the point that we can’t hash things out with our fists, and there’s no room in our society to emotionally vent, then what’s left? It’s not like violence disappeared from society, it just takes different forms when suppressed.

There's a lot of room in our society to emotionally vent; it just happens in private relationships and on internet forums. The challenge is that the emotions are often uncontained, and uncontained emotion is closely related to violence, as you say.

I agree about spaces to emotionally vent...goodness, the internet lets me vent about anything, at any time, with almost any audience of my choosing, through words, sounds, and video.

On the second part, I would say that emotions are often unarticulated, which may be similar to what you're saying. For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??" I've noticed in traffic that if someone cuts me off, I'll have a reflex to cuss out the guy or say something about him being an idiot, and then I'll pause and go, "I really just felt afraid that I would crash." I could tell story after story about how the emotion is not being clearly articulated, and that when it is, it can really realign the situation.

But, to quote James Pennebaker, author of Opening Up (a book that I read and loved) and lots of work on journaling and emotions:

"Verbally labeling an emotion is much like applying a digital technology (language) to an analog signal (emotion and the emotional experience)." --from https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/..., an article I have not yet fully read.

So, in conclusion, maybe my unarticulated is your uncontained analog signal :-D

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#232

Post by RangerScience » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 5:54 AM UTC

seph-reed wrote: post #224

Humanity lives in a bubble, and at the edge of that bubble is an incredibly harsh reality. Someone has to stand guard, typically men. Part of staring into the void is wearing emotional armor. On occasion you should take a break, go towards the middle of the bubble, be safe and warm, take a bath, eat, drop your armor, etc. But that doesn't mean you were wrong to have worn armor at the wall. Nor does it mean the bubble…

What about reality is harsh, and of that harshness, what is best addressed by emotional armor, and of that, do you know of any better coping mechanisms than that emotional armor? Although I do have a direction in mind, I am legit asking to understand your perspective and knowledge.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#233

Post by seph-reed » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 5:56 AM UTC

thanatropism wrote: post #205

bonniemuffin wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I want to push back on your assertion that vulnerability is inherently equivalent to weakness. Our society currently says it is, but I could equally imagine a future in which being vulnerable and honest about your feelings is seen as a feat of strength and courage -- because it DOES take a lot of courage, and even confidence, to be open and honest about your feelings.

So having feelings is the new peacocking?

Dude, Bro. Brroooooooo. I'm telling you, dress and pig tails. Ladies love it.

Btw, joking about bro bits, but also it's true.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#234

Post by presidentscroob » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 5:56 AM UTC

I don't understand the point of this article, it comes across to me as sheltered people with too much spare time maundering over petty, victimhood-ology nothingburgers. First responders and third-world climate refugees have real trauma to deal with compared to the petty whining and whinging of sub/urban white-collar employees who don't know how good they have it.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#235

Post by keiferski » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 5:59 AM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #206

anon9001 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a mainstream idea now that masculinity is toxic, so it's not surprising that people are projecting that onto this. Calling it "New Warrior Training Adventure" comes across as super patronizing. "ManKind" isn't great either. The names alone are surely responsible for much of the pushback that you're seeing. I did a bit of digging though, trying to keep an open mind, and I was surprised to find that MKP is indeed…

Point of logic: it's a mainstream idea that there exists a type of masculinity that is toxic (strict subset) not that all masculinity is toxic.

Expecting this kind of nuance (or any nuance, really) from the mainstream is hopeful thinking. Everything seems to collapse into simple viewpoints after awhile.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#236

Post by FussyZeus » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

seph-reed wrote: post #224

Humanity lives in a bubble, and at the edge of that bubble is an incredibly harsh reality. Someone has to stand guard, typically men. Part of staring into the void is wearing emotional armor. On occasion you should take a break, go towards the middle of the bubble, be safe and warm, take a bath, eat, drop your armor, etc. But that doesn't mean you were wrong to have worn armor at the wall. Nor does it mean the bubble…

Is reality that harsh? Certainly there are immutable truths to be found, and of those, a certain subset aren't pleasant. But by and large in my experience, reality is largely neutral. What's often much harsher than any reality are the status quos of societal systems, and though they may be difficult to mutate, they are mutable.

As much as I detest things like the Men's Rights movement and MGTOW and other such groups, they've sprung up largely to fill the void left by the various (and rightful) excisions made into masculinity by progressive politics. We've learned how much of what was traditionally defined as masculine was not only sexist, but also just straight up harmful, both to men and everyone else. The problem is we set about destroying these elements of masculinity without then replacing them with something else, and nature abhors a vacuum. So now we have large sects of male demographics leaning into the toxicity, because having a bad identity is better than having no identity.

If I have one serious complaint with progressives, it's that the majority seem to regard men as privileged so far beyond everyone else that they have no legitimate complaints, and it's bullshit. And not only is it bullshit, it's ultimately self-defeating. With each lonely young man who is ignored and cast out of any kind of progressive minded group, the alt-right and MRA activists gain another pawn, easily radicalized against those who hate him when he himself has done nothing wrong.

So no, I don't think reality is that harsh. I think humans are harsh.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#237

Post by dang » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:03 AM UTC

jimkleiber wrote: post #231

dang wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of room in our society to emotionally vent; it just happens in private relationships and on internet forums. The challenge is that the emotions are often uncontained, and uncontained emotion is closely related to violence, as you say.

I agree about spaces to emotionally vent...goodness, the internet lets me vent about anything, at any time, with almost any audience of my choosing, through words, sounds, and video. On the second part, I would say that emotions are often unarticulated, which may be similar to what you're saying. For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wr…

I'm not sure I understand the bit about digital technology, but this seems to me to be pure gold: "For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??""

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#238

Post by iliketocomplain » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:05 AM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #232

seph-reed wrote: post #224

Humanity lives in a bubble, and at the edge of that bubble is an incredibly harsh reality. Someone has to stand guard, typically men. Part of staring into the void is wearing emotional armor. On occasion you should take a break, go towards the middle of the bubble, be safe and warm, take a bath, eat, drop your armor, etc. But that doesn't mean you were wrong to have worn armor at the wall. Nor does it mean the bubble…

What about reality is harsh, and of that harshness, what is best addressed by emotional armor, and of that , do you know of any better coping mechanisms than that emotional armor? Although I do have a direction in mind, I am legit asking to understand your perspective and knowledge.

Rape, murder, death of family and friends, famine, cancer, torture. Getting stabbed. Being shot. Being enslaved. Total war. Being exterminated. Stuff like that.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#239

Post by dang » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:10 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #222

anon9001 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for naming some other similar organizations. I did some searching and just learned that they're called LGATs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large-group_awareness_training

Right, large-group awareness training. The rationale being that we're a lot alike, and can learn from each other. There's typically lots of sharing, interspersed with material from the presenter. And usually, the person who's sharing is the last one to get the learning. Hoffstadter's I Am a Strange Loop is mostly about the role that self-referential systems arguably play in consciousness. But it also argues that part…

Wow, you clearly have a wide range of experiences with these things, and I'm curious to hear what you could share.

How would you compare what you personally got out of NWT vs. est/Landmark?

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#240

Post by seph-reed » Sat, Sep 28, 2019, 6:12 AM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #232

seph-reed wrote: post #224

Humanity lives in a bubble, and at the edge of that bubble is an incredibly harsh reality. Someone has to stand guard, typically men. Part of staring into the void is wearing emotional armor. On occasion you should take a break, go towards the middle of the bubble, be safe and warm, take a bath, eat, drop your armor, etc. But that doesn't mean you were wrong to have worn armor at the wall. Nor does it mean the bubble…

What about reality is harsh, and of that harshness, what is best addressed by emotional armor, and of that , do you know of any better coping mechanisms than that emotional armor? Although I do have a direction in mind, I am legit asking to understand your perspective and knowledge.

1. A single, recent example of harshness:

6 weeks ago Epstein was suicided because his trial might have led to even a few of the super rich 1% from getting reprimanded for raping child sex slaves. Not only is there nothing any of us can really do about it, the world forgot in less than week.

Bad is winning. No path to utopia takes the "let them rich rape children" fork in the road.

2. Emotional armor:

The above example is a single drop in the ocean. Empathizing with the raped children hurts. Feeling your powerlessness to do anything about it hurts. Now start adding the 1000 other awful things that have being done to people. You already have, and you already have shut down. Nobody can feel that much pain. But having armor is more about letting yourself take as many hits as possible before shutting down than hiding. The more cold your empathy, the more you can stare into the void.

3. Better coping mechanisms

Dumping this shit into the safe space would defeat the point. It would just make the world even worse. I put what I can into trying to recruit. We could really use more strong people, if you're interested. Most of it though, I let it hurt me, then I use this awesome feature of being a human where I forget about things. In the moment it sucks, but over time I look back and see a beautiful existence.

Valor is a quality not easily acquired, and I wish to.